love'em wrote:
Gretsch, Gibsons,well,most of them,these days,are like little saw teeth,that are not filed down,with the curve of the edge of the board, frets just seem to "end" at the edge,even a bound board, looks and feels like little railway ties,after sitting with one for 20 mints, my fingers are actually burning a bit from these fret edges, there are really just 2 things you "feel" in a vintage guitar; the neck in one hand; the body with the other,
finish changes came by LAW,fret work came by, save money!, get machine to do it!,thats the big contrast in feel,there are VERY few artists left, as in those old days, who know how to simply dress a fret !!!
to be perfectly honest i have seen this with every maker including rickenbacker, certain era of late 90's and some of those guitars are maturing even in controlled climate...one of my own 4001v63 had fret tangs sticking out and there was no drying of the fingerboard ...same with one 660 sitting right next to it in climate controlled room and exactly same year 660/12 right next to it had not changed at all...it all comes to manufacturing processes as they are today, less and less handwork goes in, so that's why guitar techs make living
dusan palka who is also known as grazioso on infamous auction web site
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Good question...I had been looking for a Rick 4001/4003. On E-Bay, I have found USED 4003's for as little as 1900 or so and upwards of (used mind you) 2800. I just bought mine, brand spanking new, with case, for 1750. So I guess I could by 20 and make a killing profit. Nah...Not me. It apparantly is what the market will bear and what people will pay. I played the "meet or beat you price" with several online companies. This was, truly, about as low as it will go for a new one. Do your homework, play THEIR games, and you will be ok. Only truly 'vintage' stuff on E-Bay is worth what will be asked. BTW, I have a Kramer XL-24 (maple with walnut stringers, 1981) for sale. If anybody is interested. That is on E-bay.
Going back to collin's point on true specs for reissue instruments. Look how long it took gibson to get the les paul right using this as an example.The Reissue of the les paul custom came out in 1968 and I had one. Then in the seventies we had the sandwich body les pauls. Then in the 80s we had volutes in the necks. Then in the 90s they started to become aware that they were way off the mark as far as what players wanted for vintage specs. So gibson went back to the drawing board and got some 1959 sunburst originals to scan for specs. Guess what, they were all different. Now what? That's because to some extent these guitars were hand made and each one was different. Gibson actually flew the owners of these guitars to gibson to go over them, because of their value. It seems only now with gibsons VOS series that they got it close. I would still not say 100% after 50 years. So coming back to point, I would say ric did a very good job of reissuing the 36012c63 because they did some research before producing the guitar. Short bass toaster, 3.5 ohm, long magnet treble pickup , 7.5 ohm shading of the fireglow finish, and the spray pattern neck radius hex bushings for the tuner keys, original spec pots and caps X bracing, sure I left out some specs. For the most part, I think ric got it right. Now as far as body shape I would hope they had the original tooling or found an original 63 to scan to get that right. I will post pictures of harrisons 12. Judge for yourself about the spray pattern. And as you know fireglow will differ slightly. I will also post some pictures of mine for comparison.
The 360/12 C63 is an amazing reproduction, IMO. I suppose they could CT scan George's Rick the way Gretsch did with Billy Zoom's Gretsch Silver Jet, and for all we know, that's what RIC did, but absent making a relic, with all of the artificial "mojo" it entails, I don't think anyone could ask for more than what RIC's building, especially at that price!
I agree. Putting my 360/12C63 up against my newly acquired 1965 360, I am amazed at the similarity and beauty of the Fireglo finish. The only thing better than a 360/12C63 repro would be a genuine item from that era, and we all know how rare they are!
This is a really interesting thread. Great opinions coming through on all points.
For my twopennorth (or two-cents worth I guess ) the biggest problem I've found with the, admittedly few, vintage guitars I own is the feel & the sound....
The 2 most investmentable (is that I real word? If not I'm copyrighting it ) guitars I own are probably a 1964 Gibson ES330 & the recently acquired 21 fret 4001 that I bought off ebay UK 2 weeks ago. The trouble is they are also the best playing instruments I own & I'm unlikely to want to sell them on again.
Can we have a bit more talent in the monitors please.....?
As a newbie to the forum, I thought I'd weigh in on the subject. Everything I'm reading concerning the stock market is that we are in for a slow recovery. There are still around 9.5% unemployment and nearly 6mm homes in foreclosure here in the U.S. That being said, I say buy what you love. If a vintage Rickenbacker fires you up, then you've made the right choice. I know looking back over the past ten years, I wish I'd listened to my gut and just followed the wallet trail.....i.e. invested in the companies that I believed in and traded with. Supply and demand drives prices, and they aren't making any 50's and 60's Rickenbackers. If you've been wanting one and can afford it, might as well buy one. The sweet melodies and jangle will be your dividends.
"A Promise never Broken is a strange thing, Indeed." Kevn Kinney
It seems like it's much easier to purchase a brand new Ric for less, compared to a year ago. Inventory is higher than it was and many dealers/on-line chains, are motivated to sell. Their profit margin has diminished. A 4003 that sold for $1,800.00 could be purchased, easily, for $1,400.00. This may be one indicator regarding what vintage prices are and will be, given our economic situation.
Dealers selling older/vintage gear, still seem to be advertising for top dollar, though. I'm not sure the stuff is moving all that fast. If you use ebay as a gauge, the older stuff isn't commanding the high dollar it once did. Case in point is that 4002 bass that sold for $2,500.00 (if memory serves me correct - there's a post here on the forum that details it and the buyer, too).
I think if someone has a rare piece that's in exceptional condition, and it's original, they are less likely to feel the effects of the downswing that's hit the market. These will be the exception to the rule, as they are in a category all their own, sort to speak.
I've read several articles that say the market peaked, and that vintage gear is unlikely to see those exceptionally high prices of 2007. Things, overall, may have been artificially inflated, and now what we're seeing, is a leveling (normalizing) effect.
I still think that certain pieces will command higher than average prices, but overall, I don't think we'll see the return of what was. At least not to the degree where it peaked.
If Mozart were with us today, he'd play a Fireglo 4001C64! ~~~*~~~ Beethoven, on the other hand, would play a Matte Jetglo 4001C64S!
Ric N. Backer wrote:
Dealers selling older/vintage gear, still seem to be advertising for top dollar, though. I'm not sure the stuff is moving all that fast. If you use ebay as a gauge, the older stuff isn't commanding the high dollar it once did. Case in point is that 4002 bass that sold for $2,500.00 (if memory serves me correct - there's a post here on the forum that details it and the buyer, too).
I think this is not the best example to illustrate your point. The auction to which you refer was run on UK ebay by the spouse of a deceased bass player/collector known to some on this forum. Unfortunately for her, it seems as if there were a number of bids (likely higher than the ultimate sales price of US $3122) that were automatically rejected by ebay because of the way she had set up her auction. Topic thoroughly discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=68&t=398398&hilit=4002
On the other hand, a recent sale (11/2/10) of a model 4002 bass in Canada for US $5900 is probably more representative of the current market for that model. Discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=68&t=398020
Ric N. Backer wrote:
Dealers selling older/vintage gear, still seem to be advertising for top dollar, though. I'm not sure the stuff is moving all that fast. If you use ebay as a gauge, the older stuff isn't commanding the high dollar it once did. Case in point is that 4002 bass that sold for $2,500.00 (if memory serves me correct - there's a post here on the forum that details it and the buyer, too).
I think this is not the best example to illustrate your point. The auction to which you refer was run on UK ebay by the spouse of a deceased bass player/collector known to some on this forum. Unfortunately for her, it seems as if there were a number of bids (likely higher than the ultimate sales price of US $3122) that were automatically rejected by ebay because of the way she had set up her auction. Topic thoroughly discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=68&t=398398&hilit=4002
On the other hand, a recent sale (11/2/10) of a model 4002 bass in Canada for US $5900 is probably more representative of the current market for that model. Discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=68&t=398020
Valid point. Maybe $5,900 is closer to what they sell for. My analysis was based on the last sale, which, as you correctly point out, was $3,122.
Love to have one. Some day...
If Mozart were with us today, he'd play a Fireglo 4001C64! ~~~*~~~ Beethoven, on the other hand, would play a Matte Jetglo 4001C64S!
) the biggest problem I've found with the, admittedly few, vintage guitars I own is the feel & the sound....
) guitars I own are probably a 1964 Gibson ES330 & the recently acquired 21 fret 4001 that I bought off ebay UK 2 weeks ago. The trouble is they are also the best playing instruments I own & I'm unlikely to want to sell them on again.
