Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

Heh heh... yeah, we ain't gon' have non of that!

heinpete wrote:

walker wrote:
...but then it was revealed that the neck had quite a forward bow. This was the action at the 12th fret:


...

...hey, that's great, no fret buzz!!!

Don't be so sure... Even with that height, it still managed to buzz...

I've had problems with this bass from the very beginning...

Observe...

My first complaints...
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=261834&p=261834#p261834


This thread is from nearly 7 years ago. Describes the twisted condition of the neck, it's trip to the factory and RICs attempt at a solution to the problem...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=276970&p=276970#p276970

The thread is missing pictures of the "re-cut" bridge saddles. I can see if I can find a couple when I get home.

Like I said, it's never really played right...

It's really unfortunate that RIC didn't man up and replace it for you when you asked them to. Clearly it came out of the factory flawed.

Today's update: In prepping for the steam treatment to the neck, I removed the pickguard and discovered excess routing in the neck pickup cavity which would explain why the neck was pitching forward right at the body intersection. Oddly enough, it looked like it came from the factory like this, so I wrote to Ben Hall to see what his opinion was and what he could do for Rick.

This is our exchange via Facebook messaging. It's a little tedious to read, but I'd rather not give the appearance of misrepresentation, so I copy & pasted it verbatim and included the photos we exchanged:

"Hey Ben - I've got a unique situation here. A customer of mine has given me his C64S to work on to address some neck issues and do further body mods. After adjusting the truss rods and getting the neck straight, there's still quite a valley of height at the high end of the neck, which I thought was curious. Basically, the neck does a sharp pivot right at the body intersection. In the first photo, you can see how badly the neck angles forward even though it's pretty straight along the fretboard. The bridge is down as far as it will go. In the 2nd photo you can see the action."






"So I removed the pickguard, and discovered this:"



"There's quite a bit going on in there, so I'll tell you everything I'm seeing. The "MG" cavity surface of the neck wood is a millimeter below the surface of the body wing cavities. And those extra route grooves running through the middle reveal that this bass was assembled from parts from other basses - the routes don't even line up, they're obviously different widths, and you can see a notch at the bottom left corner of the pickup cavity. And all that extra routing is what has weakened the neck at that point, so it's no wonder that the neck is pitching forward so badly. And that glue job... wow.

Before I showed the customer this photo, I asked him if he's ever had any work done on it before, and he said that he sent it back to RIC once and all they did was recut the saddles and tell him that the neck had "a little bit of a dip in the neck, but is fine." If his version of "little dip" is something that could swallow a small car, maybe that's a valid comment, but in the real world, this bass is unplayable - even after making every attempt at adjusting the available parameters within the construct of the bass.

I'm not trying to get your production guys in trouble, but it sounds like they were trying to save face and weren't forthright in the fact that this bass was made from spare parts, and sustained substantial routing damage. And what's up with that gouge in the bottom of the cavity? It looks like someone went in with a hand-held router, using NO guides obviously, and started to pave away the extra routing grooves before realizing that he was making a weak point even weaker by eliminating more wood there.

In my opinion, this bass should never have left the factory. I could do my best to correct the issue with a centralized steam press, but given the weakness of the neck at that cavity, there's no guarantee that it'll take. Bigger picture - he paid for a new, whole bass, not one made from parts taken from other guitars, and not one with routing damage. What can you do for this guy? I honestly think he deserves a newly made bass."


Ben Hall's brief response:
"Mark, serial #…"

I gave him the serial number of Rick's bass, but received no further response after waiting 5 days. So today I wrote Ben to give him a nudge:

"So what's the word?"

He replied:

"I'm not in the position to do such a thing, but I will tell you that that middle rout IS normal and there is no possible way to slap parts from other basses on a 4001 neck. What are we going to use, 4003 and 4004 parts? All routing until 2007 was done by hand on a large overarm router using a jig/guide. The RA info from 2006 says this guy's warranty was voided because he had high tension flatwounds on it. Feel free to email John about this and get his opinion."




My response:

"Your opinion and information is fine, thanks. Obviously your position at RIC holds authority. I'll pass your comment on to the customer.

I don't know if you misunderstood the information I relayed to you, but I never suggested that RIC used parts from different models to make guitars. I'll clarify: This C64 bass looks like it was constructed using different 4003 parts. Not only do the routes not match vertically, but the depth doesn't match either, nor do the outer edges. I've never seen this method of construction used before. I'm more familiar with the guitars that are not routed until after they've been put together. If this is really the RIC standard of design now, then it's no wonder these basses are buckling under higher string tensions. I have to assume that you're not just a company head, but a musician as well who understands that players are a diverse lot with a wide variety of preferences, specifically with the kind of strings they prefer. So if your bass line is too fragile to accommodate the players who prefer higher tension strings, then that could be a red-flag to take seriously.

I have nothing vested here personally. I didn't pay for this bass, but this "voided warrantee" excuse is still disappointing, and unfortunately is part of RIC's reputation. It reveals that RIC is more concerned with protecting its profit margin than satisfying its customers and building an outstanding product. Lately I've been getting a lot of business from people with flawed Ricks, ~most commonly the guitars & basses made in just the past couple of years~. If you're interested in what the specific problems are, I'll be happy to outline those details for you - I think RIC could stand to benefit from specific examples of numerous product issues to improve upon it's designs. I don't know if customer feedback is taken into account when establishing your production standard, but (no offense intended) right now you guys are way off the mark. As your products are now, I would not recommend a RIC instrument to anyone interested in buying a guitar.

I don't know if you recognize this, but I'm trying to offer some constructive criticism here, at the expense of my repair work subsiding drastically."


Ben Hall replied by saying:

"Thanks for the concern, Mark."

then he immediately deleted me from his Facebook friend's list and blocked me.

So there's the situation. And now here's Rick Roosa with the color and commentary - Rick?

That's a pretty ****** way to do business, to use the "high tension strings" response to an obvious manufacturing defect. I guess RIC is making way too much money to worry about poorly crafted basses now. All I know is, If I am ever in the market to purchase a newer 4003 I will definitely remove the pickups to look at the routes.

Don't get me wrong, I love my '77 but I am truly disappointed in Ben's response. World class companies typically don't blow off the customer in this way.

Wow. I am looking to buy a near-new 4001c64 or 4001c64s, and the photo of that rout is just horrific. I can't believe a new bass could get out of the factory looking like that. I don't think that would be acceptable QC for even a low cost mass produced instrument.

You think Ben's response is disappointing now; wait until you hear about what he said to Rick when Rick called him. *whew* Rick gave me the skinny there, but I'll let him relay the story here first-hand.

I agree about the QC issue - with stuff like that leaving the plant, it's as if RIC doesn't have a QC stage period. If they ~DO~, well Holy S! It's amazing that person / those people haven't been fired.

About the only way to fix this without major replacement would be to rout out the whole area as deep as needed to the lowest level presently routed and put in a very tight fitting block of maple, then re-rout for the pickup with a truly minimal rout. Is it worth the effort and cost?

This is tragic......

I've currently got the bass on the rack with the neck clamped down at the 12th fret after having applied a heat press. I'd rather not remove any more wood than is already gone, so I'm going to try a hard-resin fill in the cavity while the neck is currently pushed back.

Too bad that such a fun and interesting project has hit a dead spot and the truth once again is twisted. Why is so hard for this company to just admit that it MAKES MISTAKES and there are several. The quality is still #1 bass wise, but what about the blue boy finish? and their midnight blue finish that is closer to black? I've sent several brand new Rick basses back due to many factory "oversights". What can you do to salvage this project without sacrificing the integrity of the neck?

I already PMd the admins to explain what this was to be about.

This is in NO WAY meant to be a personal attack on anybody at RIC. I still love my 3 basses. But I can't really let this slide.

After I first purchased the bass on 7/06/06 I went to have it set up... This thread details my first problems with the bass...
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=261834&p=261834#p261834

THIS thread complete with melodrama describing the first discovery of the twist here....
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=276970&p=276970#p276970

The bass was sent back to RIC. RIC insisted that the neck was not twisted. Their soulution to the problem was to re-cut the bridge saddles off-set. It played better, but (as I've learned) not like a real RIC should. I was young and stupid and thought, this must be the way they are supposed to feel. If it just came back from the factory, it must me good.

I even brought it to MARF 2007. Both Jeff Scott and Mark Walker played the bass and took it back into Chris' workshop to try to make adjustments to the rods.

String buzz never really went away. I played it less and less and it hung in my living room by the headstock on a string swing. It was really nice to look at. When I really started to play often again I figured I'd get a proper set-up from (world famous) Mandolin Bros in Staten Island. Who told me the neck did indeed have a twist in it. Same as I was told years ago. They told me I should call RIC. I did but when I mentioned it was out of warranty, the conversation stopped there. So back on the wall it sat.

Until I saw the work Mark did on the 1999RM. I thought to myself, perhaps all was not lost. I brought him the bass about 2 weeks ago.


TODAY
After reading Mark's message I was compelled to call Ben after hearing about this mysterious "voided warranty". I had NO KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER that my warranty had been voided. The bass has only EVER had D'Addario Chromes or GHS Precision Flatwounds on it since the factory strings were removed. Both of those strings are used extensively by members of this forum.

I asked Ben why, if my warranty was voided, I had never heard about this. The only thing I kept hearing was "it doesn't matter, your warranty is expired now anyway". He then proceeded to start hammering Mark. "Mark obviously doesn't have a clue about how we do things" & "I hope you didn't give him any money because he doesn't know what he's talking about". After hearing the same reply multiple times, I explained that I am not asking for money or a free instrument. I simply want to know how this could be handled. To quote Ben Hall "we can have someone read it to you if you can't figure it out on your own". Stunned at the statement, I suggested we not make this personal. I finally explained that I've invested $6200+ into RIC and that "I feel like I'm being j*rked off." The next thing I heard was (click). He hung up and that was the end of that.


I understand it's a 5 year warranty, and nobody has any idea what I could've been doing with this bass, or the conditions it was kept in. But the pictures don't lie about how it was put together. The basis of my argument was to try to get to some solution. I was told that high-tension strings can void a warranty. I was told that is printed in the manual, and after checking I realized it was.

BUT
I would like to go over what is printed in the manual.

What's Not Covered
The warranty is void if, upon inspection by RIC factory personnel, the defect is determined to be the result of damage due to misuse, exposure to environmental extremes, modification, or the use of replacement parts, including strings, not in conformity with factory specifications, or due to damage not resulting from a manufacturing defect.



RIC STRING GUIDE

95511 - All Four String Bass Guitars - Round Wound NikL 45-55-75-105

"Any quality string set may be
utilized on a Rickenbacker guitar or
bass within a reasonable gauge
range as suggested by the chart
above."


Nowhere are specific TENSION guidelines visible. So if that's the case, lets go over the gauge sizes of the strings I have used.

D'Addario Chomes ECB80 40-60-75-95 (used my MANY on this forum)

I never really liked them so I soon switched to...

GHS Precision Flatwounds 3025 45-60-75-95

Even with the roundwounds the bass just always seemed to buzz

These have been the string from that point that I have out on all other basses (2 other RIC among them) I own.

I would think they should fall in line with the only LISTED string recommendations. I know string tension is something totally different, but why have I not heard more about these "warranty voiding" strings if they are being used by others?

The other question I have is... Why repair a guitar under a warranty if I voided it?! It makes NO SENSE!

He has his position, I have mine. BUT AGAIN, the mystery is... Why was I not informed of my voided warranty? Why was it fixed under a warranty that apparently didn't exist when it got to RIC due to the discovery of the "tight" strings? I quote Ben hall from 11/18/06 from the 2nd linked thread above...

My chief tech told me the bass had a dip in the neck but that it played just fine.

WHY SAY THAT IF THE GUITAR WAS ALREADY ON IT'S WAS BACK TO ME WITH IT'S "VOIDED STATUS"?

It was NEVER mentioned, and I'm beginning to think I know why...

Honestly this is PURE SPECULATION, but I'm beginning to think the defect was discovered, and it was decided to throw a completely unrelated (IMO) repair at it to show that SOMETHING was done and get me to go away.

Now THAT makes it completely plausible that at that point they decided to "secretly void" the warranty. That way, if I wasn't dumb enough to realize that this new bridge didn't really fix anything (but I was), if I attempted to send it back, they could pull the "tight string tension voided warranty" card on me. By not mentioning it to me then, they could hope I wouldn't call and ask questions (which I didn't). Then if I forgot and gave up (which I DID) eventually the warantee would run out without any more liability (which it DID)

Had it been handled professionally, I might've left this alone. But instead I was treated like an idiot who doesn't know how to read.

I expect backlash from this thread and I just hope this thread doesn't get me banished, but if it does, I want to thank everyone on her for being good, helpful and knowledgeable friends. Brian Simer, Jeff Scott, Kris Lyons, Mark Walker and anyone I've forgotten. I thank you all.

If not, we will continue this thread for it it become what it was supposed to be from the beginning. A cool way to make a C64S more like Paul's.

I guess quite a few people are going to be shocked when they look under the pick guard of their basses made in that era and discover they were made the same way. This dates back to the CNC fixturing done by Grover Jackson where the left and right halves, as well as the central neck portion were all machined separately. The central slot was different specifically to accommodate a clamp and alignment block, whereas the "wings" were held during cutting by vacuum.

Said differently, all three of the parts were slotted separately, each to the dimensions required to get the job done, and then glued up.

The extra hand routing was done- not as cleanly as it could have been but still out of view- in the assembly department to allow the leads to exit the pickup and run in the circuit cavity slot.

Feel free to examine a number of instruments from that period of time and verify that these are all alike. Later instruments used different tooling and you'll find this area is quite different yet.

congerz83 wrote:I even brought it to MARF 2007. Both Jeff Scott and Mark Walker played the bass and took it back into Chris' workshop to try to make adjustments to the rods.

Let's not put "words in anybody's mouth", here, Rick.

What I recall is you asking for me to help make some adjustments to the bass, which I did do with some tweaking of the rods just like I would do for anyone else who needed some neck relief adjustments to their bass (or guitar). You seem to be implying that I considered the bass flawed, that is far from the truth. I never saw a twist or problem, only a bass that needed adjusting, just as any of my own personal instruments need on a seasonal basis (with the exception of my '73 4001 which remains perfect year after year ). If I misunderstood your comment then I do apologize for such, but let it be know that I never considered your bass a problem child.

jps wrote:

congerz83 wrote:I even brought it to MARF 2007. Both Jeff Scott and Mark Walker played the bass and took it back into Chris' workshop to try to make adjustments to the rods.

Let's not put "words in anybody's mouth", here, Rick.

What I recall is you asking for me to help make some adjustments to the bass, which I did do with some tweaking of the rods just like I would do for anyone else who needed some neck relief adjustments to their bass (or guitar). You seem to be implying that I considered the bass flawed, that is far from the truth. I never saw a twist or problem, only a bass that needed adjusting, just as any of my own personal instruments need on a seasonal basis (with the exception of my '73 4001 which remains perfect year after year ). If I misunderstood your comment then I do apologize for such, but let it be know that I never considered your bass a problem child.

I should've put something in parentheses, bit I actually sat on that sentence for a bit. I tried to be very careful how I worded that so you wouldn't think that was my intention. I apparently didn't do a good enough job. Sorry Jeff.

To make it offical, Jeff Scott made some adjustments for me at MARF, but at no time we any disparaging statements made about it from him. He is an innocent bystander in this thread. I just mentioned him because he was there and willing to help me out.