Would you like to see imported Rick budget models?
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spike
"This is a haven on the internet away from all the mindless BS flaming and juvenile behavior,"
That may be, but this forum is no different any other guitar forum on the net. Step out of line and get hammered. I've cleary learned what can and can't be discussed here.
From now on, I'm sticking to the technical threads.
That may be, but this forum is no different any other guitar forum on the net. Step out of line and get hammered. I've cleary learned what can and can't be discussed here.
From now on, I'm sticking to the technical threads.
Tom: There are lots of Forums on the internet in which the participants are permitted to say most anything they want, regardless of the impact of their statements on others. This is not one of them.
I don't claim that the Rickenbacker Forum is any different or better than these other forums, but I do care how others feel here.
Sometimes we go too far expressing our view points, but in the end we are almost always able to resolve our differences and continue with our discussion.
I invite everyone to participate in all aspects of The Rickenbacker Forum but simply ask that they appreciate that it is not an "anything goes" place.
I don't claim that the Rickenbacker Forum is any different or better than these other forums, but I do care how others feel here.
Sometimes we go too far expressing our view points, but in the end we are almost always able to resolve our differences and continue with our discussion.
I invite everyone to participate in all aspects of The Rickenbacker Forum but simply ask that they appreciate that it is not an "anything goes" place.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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A comment was made comparing OLP to Spector to Rickenbacker, and I have to step in as I own all three brands.
First, RIC can do what it wants to do because it IS totally family owned. Does that fact increase demand? If Gibson and Fender reduced their output to the same levels as RIC, had similar pricing, and kept their same present level of quality, would demand for Gibsons and Fenders be higher or lower than Rickenbackers with a greater or lesser backlog? I have a personal opinion that demand for Gibsons and Fenders would be overwhelming under those conditions. When you talk demand, you must also account for supply. There is a huge supply of Fenders and Gibsons, and that takes care of backlogs instead of perceived lessened demand. If you order custom shop Fenders and Gibsons, the wait can be just as long as for Rickenbackers that are special ordered.
The reason that Spectors go for reduced prices on eBay is because you can get a used "$6000" Spector in excellent condition for $2000 from Bass Central. The same bass would sell for about $4000 if new from Bass Central. It goes used for half of new "street discount" price, which is standard for a lot of current production basses. The Spectors that are reasonably priced do NOT languish on eBay. Few of them actually go at "giveaway" prices, and the Euro basses can look almost identical to the USA basses. A Euro bass selling at the Euro price is not a USA bass going at a giveaway price. The guys actually bidding usually know their Spectors as well as you guys know your Rickenbackers, and they know when a seller is pulling a fast one in most cases. I've seen the same Spectors several times because either the price is too high or the ad is a false evaluation of the bass or an over evaluation. I see similar occurrences among the Rickenbackers on eBay, except the Rickenbacker shysters can really get way out at times.
Spector licensed the Spector headstock design and general outline shape of the body to OLP. It is not double carved body like the Euro and USA Spectors. OLP uses the EMG SSD pickups, but they are wired differently than on the Spector Performer bass that also uses them. The tone stack is different, like a Jazz bass. The Quasi-Steinberger bridge is easier to adjust than genuine Steinberger bridges, and belongs on an entry level bass that an inexperienced user has to adjust. The slim neck is more like a Jazz bass neck than a Spector neck, and it is suited to young entry level players that want a bass that LOOKS like a Spector bass in a general way. The bolt-on neck uses 4 bolts instead of 5 as on Spectors. The basswood body is light and easy for young players to manage, unlike heavy maple bodies the USA Spectors use. The OLP bass has worked perfectly since I got it, and it's great for what it is, but it's not a Spector and I doubt that Stuart Spector has lost a single sale for his higher priced Spector basses. For about $100-$150 more, you can get a Spector Performer that is closer to what the high end Spectors are like. The workmanship on the OLP is outstanding for the price, and there is even room in the control cavity for adding an Aguilar preamp, which would turn it into a real tiger. But once I got my ReBop, I knew immediately that my OLP was NOT a Spector. Certain things about a Spector aren't instantly apparent, but important. Like the neck that is set at a slightly different plane to the body which allows the saddle on the E string to be at the same height as the G string saddle. Which also allows both ends of the pickups to be at the same height for proper string balance. The incredibly stiff neck that has almost no discernible dead spots. The dead spots on the OLP neck are just as apparent as on an old Jazz bass. Nope, Stuart Spector has lost no sales because if you want a real Spector, you have to buy a real Spector. The OLP is a nice entry level bass that looks like a Spector from a distance, and it has a similar excellent balance, if not quite the ergonomics. Good enough to make you want the real thing. I think it makes sales for Spector in the end.
Spector has 4 series of production basses: Chinese, Korean, Czech, and American. None of them seem to steal sales from the other, but allows sales that Stuart Spector wouldn't get if he only made high priced USA basses. The Czech basses have all the feel and playability of the USA basses. Their owners would often buy the USA basses if they could, but most of them can't and it's better to preserve a customer than worry about losing a sale of your top basses every now and then. I love my ReBop. Thank you, Stuart.
I would not be against a similar attitude from RIC. If sales of downscale or upscale Rickenbackers didn't cut into the present production, who gets hurt? If Fender only made USA instruments, they might be a lot closer to the size of RIC.
First, RIC can do what it wants to do because it IS totally family owned. Does that fact increase demand? If Gibson and Fender reduced their output to the same levels as RIC, had similar pricing, and kept their same present level of quality, would demand for Gibsons and Fenders be higher or lower than Rickenbackers with a greater or lesser backlog? I have a personal opinion that demand for Gibsons and Fenders would be overwhelming under those conditions. When you talk demand, you must also account for supply. There is a huge supply of Fenders and Gibsons, and that takes care of backlogs instead of perceived lessened demand. If you order custom shop Fenders and Gibsons, the wait can be just as long as for Rickenbackers that are special ordered.
The reason that Spectors go for reduced prices on eBay is because you can get a used "$6000" Spector in excellent condition for $2000 from Bass Central. The same bass would sell for about $4000 if new from Bass Central. It goes used for half of new "street discount" price, which is standard for a lot of current production basses. The Spectors that are reasonably priced do NOT languish on eBay. Few of them actually go at "giveaway" prices, and the Euro basses can look almost identical to the USA basses. A Euro bass selling at the Euro price is not a USA bass going at a giveaway price. The guys actually bidding usually know their Spectors as well as you guys know your Rickenbackers, and they know when a seller is pulling a fast one in most cases. I've seen the same Spectors several times because either the price is too high or the ad is a false evaluation of the bass or an over evaluation. I see similar occurrences among the Rickenbackers on eBay, except the Rickenbacker shysters can really get way out at times.
Spector licensed the Spector headstock design and general outline shape of the body to OLP. It is not double carved body like the Euro and USA Spectors. OLP uses the EMG SSD pickups, but they are wired differently than on the Spector Performer bass that also uses them. The tone stack is different, like a Jazz bass. The Quasi-Steinberger bridge is easier to adjust than genuine Steinberger bridges, and belongs on an entry level bass that an inexperienced user has to adjust. The slim neck is more like a Jazz bass neck than a Spector neck, and it is suited to young entry level players that want a bass that LOOKS like a Spector bass in a general way. The bolt-on neck uses 4 bolts instead of 5 as on Spectors. The basswood body is light and easy for young players to manage, unlike heavy maple bodies the USA Spectors use. The OLP bass has worked perfectly since I got it, and it's great for what it is, but it's not a Spector and I doubt that Stuart Spector has lost a single sale for his higher priced Spector basses. For about $100-$150 more, you can get a Spector Performer that is closer to what the high end Spectors are like. The workmanship on the OLP is outstanding for the price, and there is even room in the control cavity for adding an Aguilar preamp, which would turn it into a real tiger. But once I got my ReBop, I knew immediately that my OLP was NOT a Spector. Certain things about a Spector aren't instantly apparent, but important. Like the neck that is set at a slightly different plane to the body which allows the saddle on the E string to be at the same height as the G string saddle. Which also allows both ends of the pickups to be at the same height for proper string balance. The incredibly stiff neck that has almost no discernible dead spots. The dead spots on the OLP neck are just as apparent as on an old Jazz bass. Nope, Stuart Spector has lost no sales because if you want a real Spector, you have to buy a real Spector. The OLP is a nice entry level bass that looks like a Spector from a distance, and it has a similar excellent balance, if not quite the ergonomics. Good enough to make you want the real thing. I think it makes sales for Spector in the end.
Spector has 4 series of production basses: Chinese, Korean, Czech, and American. None of them seem to steal sales from the other, but allows sales that Stuart Spector wouldn't get if he only made high priced USA basses. The Czech basses have all the feel and playability of the USA basses. Their owners would often buy the USA basses if they could, but most of them can't and it's better to preserve a customer than worry about losing a sale of your top basses every now and then. I love my ReBop. Thank you, Stuart.
I would not be against a similar attitude from RIC. If sales of downscale or upscale Rickenbackers didn't cut into the present production, who gets hurt? If Fender only made USA instruments, they might be a lot closer to the size of RIC.
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atomic_punk
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Maybe the Spector line is just too confusing to the new buyer. I see all of these NS2J, NS2000, NS4CRFM, Q6 Pro, how does one know what is an American, Czech, Korean, etc.? They LOOK alike. And doesn't the ReBop look a lot like a Warwick Streamer?
And I stand by my point on the Ebay pricing, I almost bought one of those Spectors, 4 string, amber color, don't remember the model number (who could?) for $192 with case. It was NOT an OLP and almost brand new. Tell me that is not hurting the brand?
My whole point is that someone who wants a Spector can settle for one in the 400-500 range instead of getting their best. It might be a perfectly good instrument, don't get me wrong here. I am not above seeing the appeal. But with RIC, you ALWAYS get their best. If you pick up a Rickenbacker, it is what it is, all the time. That means something to me.
And I stand by my point on the Ebay pricing, I almost bought one of those Spectors, 4 string, amber color, don't remember the model number (who could?) for $192 with case. It was NOT an OLP and almost brand new. Tell me that is not hurting the brand?
My whole point is that someone who wants a Spector can settle for one in the 400-500 range instead of getting their best. It might be a perfectly good instrument, don't get me wrong here. I am not above seeing the appeal. But with RIC, you ALWAYS get their best. If you pick up a Rickenbacker, it is what it is, all the time. That means something to me.
"They make great f***'n basses". - Lemmy, NAMM 2009
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atomic_punk
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This is the bass I referred to, and it's not the only one I have seen go for these prices.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3711857572&category=4713&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBDW%3AIT&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3711857572&category=4713&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBDW%3AIT&rd=1
"They make great f***'n basses". - Lemmy, NAMM 2009
It was probably a Peformer series bass in Amber Stain with case that you saw on eBay. Sells new for $350 without case, about $470 with case. It usually goes for around $200-$300 used, depending if you get a case or not and the condition. I have seen OLP StingRay copies go as low as $108 in mint condition, while the new price is $230. It pays to buy used if you can.
CRFM means Czech Republic, Flamed Maple. NS means Ned Steinberger. Pro means Professional series, J means J-bass pickup, etc.
The Performer series has passive pickups, bolt-on flatsawn necks, and alder bodies. 4 or 5-string models. This is traditional bolt-on sound before preamps and reinforced necks came along. If you don't need those features or fancy wood, why pay more? Believe it or not, people like Collin Ray play this bass professionally on stage. How many pros do that with a Mexican Fender?
The Professional series has bolt-on, neck-thru, or semi-hollow construction with bolt-on neck. I think all necks are flatsawn. Basswood bodies with flamed maple or bubinga caps.
Passive pickups with active preamps. Also has a Rex Brown model in this series with "unSpector" looking body that costs a bit more. If you don't need a reinforced neck, this could be as far as you need to go.
The Euro series has alder bodies with bolt-on necks and aluminum bridge with graphite nut(ReBop) or flamed maple bodies with neck-thru design and brass bridge (CRFM). Passive pickups with active preamps. MOP crown inlays now added to ReBop as well as CRFM. All have carved doubled curved bodies and 3-piece reinforced necks. Mostly 4 and 5-string models. These are deluxe basses by any standard, and the one you shoot for eventually unless very dedicated and well funded, in which case you get..............
The USA series: all have brass bridges and nuts with highly figured wood bodies. Several choices in the wood. Several different pickups. High end EMG pickups with active preamps, also J and reverse P style pickups. Fretless or fretted multi-piece reinforced necks. Bolt-on or neck-thru. 4, 5 or 6-string models. MOP crown inlays on fretted models. This is the series that confuses a bit, but it's the least likely one for you to be buying in. Anyone who buys one of these should have thought long and hard, considering the high prices. I'm not likely to own one unless I strike it rich. This series also contains custom models and limited production models.
As you can see, each series offers something different, and you play what you can afford or what fills your needs. The two bottom series don't really compete, because one is passive and one has active preamp. Neck-thru construction available in Pro series. All have a similar body style except the Rex Brown model, available in the pro series.
The two top series are more alike, but there is likely to be more people deciding if they get a ReBop or CRFM in the Euro series, rather than a choice between the Euro or USA series. The cost between the two series made my mind up for me. For a real pro with a good paying gig, the USA series is good value, and it has the ultimate versatility in the wide choice of options and models. Each series has something unique that no other series has. Stuart did a good job spreading out the features at specific price points.
The Warwick Streamer is a copy of the original NS Spector, and it comes in several price levels. I actually find the Warwick lineup more confusing than Spector, because of the many body styles. The Rickenbacker lineup is simple in comparison, and the OLP lineup is simpler still: StingRay or Spector copy, 4 or 5-string. Also, don't buy that BS about the bolt-on necks not sustaining as long as the neck-thru basses. Spector denies any difference there. The difference is the overtone to fundamental ratio. Bolt-on basses sound punchier, due to more overtone generation. Neck-thru sounds more like a piano ringing sound due to greater fundamental generation. Wish that Rickenbacker had this neck construction choice in all body styles. Every serious bass company should offer this choice in all but their cheapest basses.
CRFM means Czech Republic, Flamed Maple. NS means Ned Steinberger. Pro means Professional series, J means J-bass pickup, etc.
The Performer series has passive pickups, bolt-on flatsawn necks, and alder bodies. 4 or 5-string models. This is traditional bolt-on sound before preamps and reinforced necks came along. If you don't need those features or fancy wood, why pay more? Believe it or not, people like Collin Ray play this bass professionally on stage. How many pros do that with a Mexican Fender?
The Professional series has bolt-on, neck-thru, or semi-hollow construction with bolt-on neck. I think all necks are flatsawn. Basswood bodies with flamed maple or bubinga caps.
Passive pickups with active preamps. Also has a Rex Brown model in this series with "unSpector" looking body that costs a bit more. If you don't need a reinforced neck, this could be as far as you need to go.
The Euro series has alder bodies with bolt-on necks and aluminum bridge with graphite nut(ReBop) or flamed maple bodies with neck-thru design and brass bridge (CRFM). Passive pickups with active preamps. MOP crown inlays now added to ReBop as well as CRFM. All have carved doubled curved bodies and 3-piece reinforced necks. Mostly 4 and 5-string models. These are deluxe basses by any standard, and the one you shoot for eventually unless very dedicated and well funded, in which case you get..............
The USA series: all have brass bridges and nuts with highly figured wood bodies. Several choices in the wood. Several different pickups. High end EMG pickups with active preamps, also J and reverse P style pickups. Fretless or fretted multi-piece reinforced necks. Bolt-on or neck-thru. 4, 5 or 6-string models. MOP crown inlays on fretted models. This is the series that confuses a bit, but it's the least likely one for you to be buying in. Anyone who buys one of these should have thought long and hard, considering the high prices. I'm not likely to own one unless I strike it rich. This series also contains custom models and limited production models.
As you can see, each series offers something different, and you play what you can afford or what fills your needs. The two bottom series don't really compete, because one is passive and one has active preamp. Neck-thru construction available in Pro series. All have a similar body style except the Rex Brown model, available in the pro series.
The two top series are more alike, but there is likely to be more people deciding if they get a ReBop or CRFM in the Euro series, rather than a choice between the Euro or USA series. The cost between the two series made my mind up for me. For a real pro with a good paying gig, the USA series is good value, and it has the ultimate versatility in the wide choice of options and models. Each series has something unique that no other series has. Stuart did a good job spreading out the features at specific price points.
The Warwick Streamer is a copy of the original NS Spector, and it comes in several price levels. I actually find the Warwick lineup more confusing than Spector, because of the many body styles. The Rickenbacker lineup is simple in comparison, and the OLP lineup is simpler still: StingRay or Spector copy, 4 or 5-string. Also, don't buy that BS about the bolt-on necks not sustaining as long as the neck-thru basses. Spector denies any difference there. The difference is the overtone to fundamental ratio. Bolt-on basses sound punchier, due to more overtone generation. Neck-thru sounds more like a piano ringing sound due to greater fundamental generation. Wish that Rickenbacker had this neck construction choice in all body styles. Every serious bass company should offer this choice in all but their cheapest basses.
Steve, the new street price was $500 or less for that bass. It's a Korean Spector. They usually sell for around $300 with a nice case, and the guy admits the included case is a junker. I have seen mint condition ones with neck-thru construction go for $300 with nice case. Still, that's a very good price and a lot better than a new OLP, but don't forget to add shipping.
My ReBop sold for $437 in mint condition with soft case, with a new street price of $900, or $1020 with hard case. And those prices include USA delivery.
I think I made a mistake on the Professional series necks. They are 3-piece but not reinforced.
My ReBop sold for $437 in mint condition with soft case, with a new street price of $900, or $1020 with hard case. And those prices include USA delivery.
I think I made a mistake on the Professional series necks. They are 3-piece but not reinforced.
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chucksimms
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I think it's great that Ric doesn't have a budget line. There's only one, it's made in the USA, end of story. If you don't think you're competing with yourself when you issue a budget line you're wrong. I'm a teacher, and I see a lot of kids buying guitars. They think if they're getting an Epiphone Les Paul or SG they're getting the Gibson that it bears a resemblance to; same with Squire. Not that you can't find decent instruments under either badge, but I've seen a LOT of terrible/unplayable guitars from both manufacturers. A good friend of mine does repairs, and he claims the majority of what he sees are Epiphones. When I've brought any of my Ricks to show students they're floored; the Rick is obviously just that much better. Sure, it'd be nice if they were cheaper, but in a way they're a custom instrument at a very reasonable price. I don't think they could ever compete with Gibson or Fender and it would be a disaster if they ever did.
'66 365 O.S. FG, '66 335 FG, '68 375 O.S., '66 330/12 MG, '69 365 O.S. azureglo, 2007 4001C64
My OLP is not as good as my Spector, but it's better than the '75 P-bass I owned that cost 4 times as much when you index inflation into the cost. There are lots of good Asian axes out there now. The Korean Tribute L-2000 by G&L is a very good bass, and it has the exact same electronics installed as American G&L basses. G&L probably did it because some players were passing up their basses for Warwick RockBass, Euro Spectors, etc.
It's totally unfair to compare brands like Spector to Gibson/Epiphone or Fender/Squier. First, they do not have a second name for the budget line. Second, there are real differences of design between the different series that they openly discuss. They are NOT the same basses except when people who are ignorant of Spector gaze on the outward appearance. Third, the price is based on country of origin labor rates and method of construction. Bottom line: You are getting what you pay for, and they let you know the differences. However, some people still believe in a "one size/quality/price fits all" approach. Not me.
Somebody mentioned that Gibson and Fender put out cheap copies because they had failed to protect their designs legally, and therefore must undercut the cutthroats. Nobody except Warwick has ripped off Spector with their Streamer design, and anybody with brains will buy the Spector instead because it's better value. Plus, only the Spector has the Steinberger bridge which is a major reason to own the Spector.
The fact that Warwick has become one of the biggest brands of quality basses by offering different models of the same basic body style at different price points proves that the multi-tiered price/quality approach certainly works. Nobody is calling their entry level RockBass series a disaster. Warwick and Spector (and a few others like Peavey) are competing against Gibson/Epiphone and Fender/Squier and offering better product at the entry level. Students need quality gear at affordable prices. Just because Gibson and Fender screw up their entry level lines doesn't mean everybody else does. Students should be taught how to recognize quality more than brand names, and how to get the most for their money by choosing equipment appropriate for THEM. The equipment preferences of their teachers should not be taught as the "right" way unless the teachers identify it as their own personal preference that not everybody agrees with. Pull out something like a G&L Tribute guitar alongside the Rickenbacker and Epiphone, and let the students decide which quality level it is most like.
It's totally unfair to compare brands like Spector to Gibson/Epiphone or Fender/Squier. First, they do not have a second name for the budget line. Second, there are real differences of design between the different series that they openly discuss. They are NOT the same basses except when people who are ignorant of Spector gaze on the outward appearance. Third, the price is based on country of origin labor rates and method of construction. Bottom line: You are getting what you pay for, and they let you know the differences. However, some people still believe in a "one size/quality/price fits all" approach. Not me.
Somebody mentioned that Gibson and Fender put out cheap copies because they had failed to protect their designs legally, and therefore must undercut the cutthroats. Nobody except Warwick has ripped off Spector with their Streamer design, and anybody with brains will buy the Spector instead because it's better value. Plus, only the Spector has the Steinberger bridge which is a major reason to own the Spector.
The fact that Warwick has become one of the biggest brands of quality basses by offering different models of the same basic body style at different price points proves that the multi-tiered price/quality approach certainly works. Nobody is calling their entry level RockBass series a disaster. Warwick and Spector (and a few others like Peavey) are competing against Gibson/Epiphone and Fender/Squier and offering better product at the entry level. Students need quality gear at affordable prices. Just because Gibson and Fender screw up their entry level lines doesn't mean everybody else does. Students should be taught how to recognize quality more than brand names, and how to get the most for their money by choosing equipment appropriate for THEM. The equipment preferences of their teachers should not be taught as the "right" way unless the teachers identify it as their own personal preference that not everybody agrees with. Pull out something like a G&L Tribute guitar alongside the Rickenbacker and Epiphone, and let the students decide which quality level it is most like.
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shamustwin
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chucksimms
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I'm not saying you can't build a quality instrument in other countries. My Squire tele is made in the Phillipines and it's an excellent guitar; I'd put it up against any other Tele for playability, but that makes it an exception. I'm not a 'Made in USA ' snob. A great guitar is great no matter where it comes from. I don't lecture students on what brand to buy; I do try to steer them away from wasting their money when possible. We've all been there- you want something you can't afford and settle for something you regret. I don't think Rick is known well enough to throw in with Gibson and Fender. There are some great budget guitars, but I think Rick would ultimately be muddying the waters and ultimately diluting the market for their products (sorry about the extended metaphor).
'66 365 O.S. FG, '66 335 FG, '68 375 O.S., '66 330/12 MG, '69 365 O.S. azureglo, 2007 4001C64
Phil said "Somebody mentioned that Gibson and Fender put out cheap copies because they had failed to protect their designs legally, and therefore must undercut the cutthroats."
Perhaps another reason that they do it is to be able to maintain high prices for products that don't really justify them. Just look at the street price for a Gibson ES333 - essentially an ES335 with no paint - and compare it with what you'll pay for a Ric 330. It's pretty obvious to me who's getting better bang for the buck in terms of quality alone, never mind all the intangibles that go with such a purchase.
Perhaps another reason that they do it is to be able to maintain high prices for products that don't really justify them. Just look at the street price for a Gibson ES333 - essentially an ES335 with no paint - and compare it with what you'll pay for a Ric 330. It's pretty obvious to me who's getting better bang for the buck in terms of quality alone, never mind all the intangibles that go with such a purchase.
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adam_swapp
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