Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

[From the Fender Player's Club Page (www.fenderplayersclub.com/artists_lounge/featured_artists/led_zeppelin.htm):

The first album is perhaps the best example of this, with its two Willie Dixon songs ("You Shook Me" and "I Can't Quit You Baby"). It's interesting to note that Dixon sued the group - and won - for infringement on the song "Whole Lotta Love" on the second album, copped from his song "You Need Love."

So, there you go. Page was sued and lost over 20 years ago. And it's been no secret ever since.]

Well, that doesn't say anything about Page making a court appearance, and it also doesn't single him out. Re-read what you've quoted. Quite simply...again...the group settled out of court with Dixon. I've already agreed to that fact.

[>>Again, as I've said, Page should take some criticism for his actions, but most of the egregious examples come from their early career, and they were under the gun to release product at that time.<<

This is just my opinion, but I think this is an absurd statement. After all, what band that has an album due isn't under the gun to release product? And if they are, does that mean if they don't have them written themselves they should be allowed to rip 'em?]

No, it doesn't. I stated that I was just giving some background, and that it wasn't an excuse, but of course you failed to quote that part, even though it would've only involved a copy/paste of one more sentence.

[What Page did, multiple times, is like Lennon and McCartney crediting themselves with their version of Rock 'N Roll music. That, too, they tracked early in their career, when they were under the gun to produce two lps and multiple singles a year.]

Or like Willie Dixon doing the same thing...oh, wait a minute - he *has* been accused of exactly that! As have many, many other blues and rock artists. Some of which have been mentioned in the links I provided - you did check those out, right? Of course, since you're referencing the Beatles, well, Lennon had purportedly stated on more than one occasion that he outright lifted guitar parts from others' songs - that according to Beatles "experts", whom I'll have to defer to, not being one myself. And apparently Matchbox, credited to Carl Perkins, was in fact stolen by Perkins himself from some old bluesman (you'll have to forgive me from not remembering who - been reading too much on the subject lately). Then there's Chuck Berry's publisher suing Lennon (and winning) because of the "here come ol' flattop..." line in Come Together.

http://www.warr.org/beatles.html

[>>You stated it as fact the first time - now you're saying you just took someone else's word for it? <<

Last I checked, this was a Jimmy Page thread.]

Actually, check again - it *was* specifically a thread about footage of JP at 14 years old found on youtube.

[But if you want the exact totals or Fleetwood Mac's sales in the 70s, I'm sure they're available. But it seems to me to be kind of far off base from the subject as, last I checked, FW Mac has not been accused of theft.]

No, I don't really care about FM album sales - you brought that up, and stated it as fact. Then you said you weren't positive, which made me wonder what other "iron clad" facts were based on things other than first hand research. Such as:

[I mean, those guys (save Plant) spent a lot of time in the music biz, backing guys like Donovan, who became rich and famous and friends with the Beatles.]

Page & Jones were session musicians, Plant & Bonham were essentially starving local players. JPJ did arrangements for a few Donovan tunes, Page did session work for his first album. You make it sound like Page, Jones & Bonham were partying it up with their connections to the biz.

[By the time Zep came around, Page, Jones and Bonham were vets]

Not Bonham.

[I guess since then they've been sued numerous times.]

Dixon for lyrics to WLL, Arc Music for the intro & outro to Bring It On Home (and Dixon had to sue *them* to get his money from their suit), and Burnett for Lemon Song. I guess if "numerous" equals "three"... And just out of curiosity, what's your opinion on P/P/J/B still being credited along side Dixon for WLL? If it was just a copy/cover, wouldn't their names have been deleted? Same deal with Lemon Song (P/P/J/B & Burnett).

[It was Page, mainly.]

Not Plant? He was responsible for 99% of the lyrics.

[But if you look where 3/4s of Zep came from, studio pop guys]

Half, not 3/4.

[(with Page having the only real penchant for blues prior to Zep,]

Plant was arguably a bigger blues fan than even Page.

[the other guys weren't really following where stuff came from, who wrote what (after all, they weren't the ones who put their names on Whole Lotta Love anyway, at least not Bonham, etc.)]

WLL - credited to Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham, and now Dixon as well.

[At the end of the day, it's all on Page. The band's rep should suffer for it. The other guys may have known, or were ignorant. But he's the major cheat. It's amazing it took the child of the writer to catch him (one wonder's what one pay's ASCAP dues for), and more than ten years on.]

And yet the basis for your example is the lyrics - *not* written by Page.

[The Rolling Stone's of the world are too close to the industry to give this story the coverage it deserves.]

Funny you should name drop RS - maybe you should research their relationship with LZ prior to their recent revisionism.

[All I had to hear was that one instance.]

Ah, I guess that answers the question I've asked more than once.

[Conversely it also makes me think more of a band like Cream, another "blues based" act that gave full credit for Crossroads to the writer, even though their rendition is a radical departure from the original]

So you don't mind that the guitar solo from Strange Brew is practically a note for note lift (uncredited) of an Albert King solo?

http://www.bookrags.com/Albert_King

[It's not like Zep was a flat out R&B bar band playing a lot of blues (ala the Stones) ]

Oh, you mean those guys who took credit for a Robert Johnson tune (Love In Vain from Let It Bleed)? Or had to add kd lang's name to Anybody Seen My Baby?

Chuck Berry had to threaten a lawsuit to get credit for the Beach Boy's Surfin' USA (Sweet Little Sixteen lift).

Check out the lyrics to Deep Purple's Speed King (from In Rock, I think). Purportedly, Rainbow's Catch The Rainbow has an intro that's a lift of Hendrix's Little Wing.

John Lee Hooker brought suit against ZZ Top for La Grange.

And on and on it goes.

Again, check out the links I provided earlier - I get the impression you didn't. Either that or you like holding onto a grudge.

And here's one more link that I just found:

http://www.turnmeondeadman.net/Zep/Originals.html

It addresses the same territory as Shade, but a lot more even handed. Or...again...you could check out the songs in question yourself.

"Rumors was the best selling non-greatest hits album of the 70s..."

Thanks for the reminder...with all the great 'underground' music being produced at that time and going largely unnoticed by the mainstream public, this little 'factoid' points out yet again what a giant load of vanilla yoghurt '70's 'culture' was. Every time I hear ol' 'Sneezy' Nicks' vocals, I'm reminded of how difficult it is to get air moving through nostrils when they're packed with cocaine.

(There, I hoped I've helped to bring this thread back into focus...)

I really like Willie Dixon, Muddy Waters. John Lee Hooker, et al.

I like LZ as well.

Don't like Fleetwood Mac or Elton John of that era.

F.M. and E.J. would have been alright if they'd ripped off some blues.

Dane, you are so right on.

Christopher, it's not that I don't want to check your links. It's simply that reading your posts in their entirety, what with their lengths, takes up a significant amount of time in itself.

I don't get the Fleetwood Mac disses. There were many more than just Stevie Nicks who were coked up during that decade. And if you want to knock that band at that time it would seem Lindsay Buckingham is the one to go after as he was its driving force. I know there are tons of Macca fans on this site and Buckingham, IMO, in many ways exemplifies McCartney-esqe pop rock song writing in quantity and quality (in both FW Mac and his solo releases) that few since the 60s have matched. Though of course Macca has oft been dissed as being vanilla (as well as yoghurt 70's during the 70s.)

I'll take 70s Mac over 70s Macca and Wings. At least Stevie was better than Linda.

[Christopher, it's not that I don't want to check your links. It's simply that reading your posts in their entirety, what with their lengths, takes up a significant amount of time in itself.]

Understandable - there's a lot of info there. I'd assumed you had managed to slog through what I've written though, as you *have* quoted bits and pieces throughout your various responses. Either way, no problem - the links are there any time you feel you (or anyone else reading who wants to go beyond taking Will Shade's version of the "truth" as gospel) are ready. There's quite a bit of interesting reading.

Dane - "Sneezy' Nicks"

She-Goat - she bleets out the lyrics.

I'm with you, Dane! Too much great music going at that time to be bothered with FM -- snoooooooore....

I'm certainly not going to 'dis' every coke head in history...where would we be without Thomas Edison? Thankfully, he didn't fancy himself a singer...well there is that wax-cylinder recording of him performing "Mary had a little lamb," but that was more of a recitation...

If I had to choose between being trapped in an elevator and forced to listen to either FM or Wings, I guess maybe I'd choose Sneezy & Co...

Hey, just a danged minute...I HAVE been trapped in that elevator!

No one, but no one, when it comes to coke and musicians in the 70s, beats Neil Young's appearance in The Last Waltz, and that was before Rumors was even out.

I think there was a lot of crud on FM, too, but it's also given credit for driving new forces in music...like album tracks instead of singles...from some very good albums.

Interesting on Surfin' USA. I knew Berry was credited but not as a result of threats.

On Donovan...

>>Page & Jones were session musicians, Plant & Bonham were essentially starving local players. JPJ did arrangements for a few Donovan tunes. Page did session work for his first album. You make it sound like Page, Jones & Bonham were partying it up with their connections to the biz. By the time Zep came around, Page, Jones and Bonham were vets. Not Bonham. <<

Firstly, Page isn't anywhere to be found on Donovan's first albums, which are basically Donovan, an acoustic guitar and a harmonica.

Jones is credited with horn arrangement on Mellow Yellow and he, Page and Bonham all played on numerous cuts on that album as well as the Hurdy Gurdy Man LP (if you know Bonham, you can certainly recognize his style on that track. In fact, when you listen to it with this in mind, HGM sounds like Donovan standing in for Plant in LZ, as one might expect it to), including the title track, and perhaps on Atlantis as well, which also features the Jeff Beck Group on the opening cut.

>>So you don't mind that the guitar solo from Strange Brew is practically a note for note lift (uncredited) of an Albert King solo? <<

Far's I know, one can't copyright a solo. Or at least I've never heard of anyone being sued for just taking a solo (but I will stand corrected if necessary.)

But it's beside the point when with Page we were debating taking a whole song, at least all of the music, if not the words as well, not a 20 second solo.

[Firstly, Page isn't anywhere to be found on Donovan's first albums, which are basically Donovan, an acoustic guitar and a harmonica.]

My mistake - I'm only marginally aware of Donovan - I meant the Hurdy Gurdy sessions (I don't the chronology or scope of his discography). That's where JPJ purports to have been first made aware that Page was looking to form a band.

[Jones is credited with horn arrangement on Mellow Yellow and he, Page and Bonham all played on numerous cuts on that album as well as the Hurdy Gurdy Man LP (if you know Bonham, you can certainly recognize his style on that track. In fact, when you listen to it with this in mind, HGM sounds like Donovan standing in for Plant in LZ, as one might expect it to)]

I know Donovan and/or some in and around his circle say that Bonham played on that album, I personally don't buy it. It doesn't jibe with the fact that Page has stated he first saw Bonham while JB was backing Tim Rose. But I'm more comfortable with JPJ's memory of the past, and he's stated that their first rehearsal on Gerrard St. was their first meeting (Plant & Bonham were expecting an old session guy), and considering the sizable and instant impression Bonham made on him (and probably vice versa), I'd think JPJ would've remembered if he'd played with him before. As well, Jones mentions the other drummer (Clem C) as being at the HGM sessions - nothing about Bonham. In fact, it's commonly accepted that the first time the three of them recorded together was P.J. Proby's Three Week Hero in 1968 (plus Plant on harmonica).

[>>So you don't mind that the guitar solo from Strange Brew is practically a note for note lift (uncredited) of an Albert King solo? <<

Far's I know, one can't copyright a solo. Or at least I've never heard of anyone being sued for just taking a solo (but I will stand corrected if necessary.)]

But why be selective? If you're gonna crucify one guy for theft, why give another guy a pass? Is there some magic formula that determines how one would arrive at the dividing line? I've pointed out a decent amount of examples (for someone that works 12+ hours a day - there's a limit to the time I want to spend on that, but I'm quite sure there are countless more examples), and yet all that's elicited from you is an "interesting" and a pass.

[ But it's beside the point when with Page we were debating taking a whole song, at least all of the music,]

Well, it's *not* beside the point when you were the one who peppered the debate with examples of bands who were supposedly not guilty of plagiarism themselves (links I provided say they were). I was merely answering statements you made.

As for lifting "a whole song, at least all of the music", I'd say we're hearing drastically different things (well, at least for the one song you say you've listened to anyway). They're both essentially pentatonic to my ears (E for Zep - I haven't played along with YNL). WLL is basically chugging along on the BD BD E EEE EEE pattern on guitar/bass tandem, while Muddy's take on the Dixon tune (the basis for the suit) has a semi walking bassline and a guitar part that doesn't stick totally to a lock step riff, and has as it's theme a string bending run down. WLL has the middle section, as well as the stop-start after that, which isn't in the Dixon tune. The drum beat is totally different.

Now if that's accepted as being "a whole song, at least all of the music", then we'd better alert all those musicians (who've been writing blues tunes and calling them their own) who've come after the first guy to lay down a I-IV-V pattern (especially if it starts off with "woke up this morning"!).

[if not the words as well, not a 20 second solo.]

The guitarist lifted the lyrics? Not according to Page and Plant (would, you'd think, would want to distance himself from the allegations if at all possible).

I can't argue with you on Bonham playing on Donovan sessions, except for the fact that there are those who are on record, perhaps in the liner notes to Don's latest box set, who flatly disagree with Page and Jones on the subject. And the cuts totally sound like Bonham to me, which along with those who were there who say it was him is the best evidence of all.

(I don't know how much partying Jones did but I can't say I'd trust Page's memory going back 40 years.)

>>But why be selective? If you're gonna crucify one guy for theft, why give another guy a pass? Is there some magic formula that determines how one would arrive at the dividing line? <<

Read the last Lennon interviews. I think he explains it in depth and clearly in regards to the My Sweet Lord court case, songwriting, and such.

I agree with those here who talk about people copping a few chords, or a lead, or a line of lyrics (as Lennon did) as being artist who take a small piece and build something new with it.

I think that's clearly different than recording a whole song that is entirely someone else's and putting your name on it.

I agree, though, that even thought the Beach Boys rewrote the lyrics to Rockin' USA, it's still Chuck's song. They crossed the line.

[I can't argue with you on Bonham playing on Donovan sessions, except for the fact that there are those who are on record, perhaps in the liner notes to Don's latest box set, who flatly disagree with Page and Jones on the subject. And the cuts totally sound like Bonham to me, which along with those who were there who say it was him is the best evidence of all.

(I don't know how much partying Jones did but I can't say I'd trust Page's memory going back 40 years.)]

Possibly not Page (nor would I trust Donovan, or those responsible for his marketing), but I'd absolutely trust what John Paul Jones has to say on a variety of topics - IMO, he was and is the consummate professional, and a pretty classy guy to boot. Not to mention, he was the musical director for the sessions (and he certainly hadn't/hasn't garnered his good reputation by being a forgetful flake):

http://www.coda-uk.co.uk/clem_cattini.htm

Another point I'd forgotten to mention was that, as would be expected, the session scene was (and is) a closed one. There'd be no reason to bring in John Bonham, who at that time was a virtual unknown outside of his own local scene. Not to mention that, when he *did* get the chance to record in studio (his own group's singles at the time), the producers/engineers told him that he had no future in the biz as his playing was just too loud.

[Read the last Lennon interviews. I think he explains it in depth and clearly in regards to the My Sweet Lord court case, songwriting, and such.]

Where might I find those interviews?

[I agree with those here who talk about people copping a few chords, or a lead, or a line of lyrics (as Lennon did) as being artist who take a small piece and build something new with it.]

I think you're inadvertently making my point for me. A whole lot of what Will Shade is using as examples of Page taking whole songs is nothing of the kind, but rather what you stated above.

[I think that's clearly different than recording a whole song that is entirely someone else's and putting your name on it.]

I agree. I'd say the most egregious example is Dazed & Confused - I still don't understand why Jake Holmes hasn't gone for a writing credit on that. He says he tried contacting Atlantic/Swan Song but didn't get a response, so he gave up. There's also the thought that he doesn't have the "muscle" to go up against the big boys, but I don't buy that. If Willie Dixon could do it, Jake Holmes could too. It's a bit of a head scratcher. Naturally, I'm of the mind that Page should've given him a credit regardless of whether Holmes asked or not. Of course, The Yardbirds as a group ripped him off first (they all were purportedly excited about doing a version of the song), and that's one of the problems I have with Shade - he skewers Page over it (rightfully) but gives the rest of the boys a pass (wrongfully - but he's a Yardbirds fan, so there ya go).

Now, the song you're familiar with in Shade's article is Dixon's You Need Love. I've given my thoughts on what aspects I think are different when comparing with Whole Lotta Love - I'm curious about your analysis as to what makes them the same song (besides lyrics).

[I agree, though, that even thought the Beach Boys rewrote the lyrics to Rockin' USA, it's still Chuck's song. They crossed the line.]

Not that I'm invested in it at all, not being a BB or CB fan, but I'm not too bent about it regardless. After all, it's commonly stated that Berry stole a lot of his songs/ideas from his pianist partner.

http://www.johnnie.com/book.htm

And that just adds to the pile I've been talking about. I'd have no problem with people blasting Page if they were to apply the same standards to all these other artists, but I rarely encounter that scenario, for some reason (vendetta?). Myself, I give Page *and* others a pass, partly since it's just so damn prevalent - in rock, blues, country, heck even Mozart's been mentioned in this thread. And even outside of music, one of America's greatest (arguably) orators has been accused of some healthy doses of plagiarism:

http://chem-gharbison.unl.edu/mlk/plagiarism.html

Do I thing it's the right thing to do? No. But if I were to dislike any and all music that's either a blatant or subtle lift of something else, I'd either be too exhausted from the research to enjoy it, or there's be nothing left to enjoy.

Well...I guess there'd be Fleetwood Mac.


edit - BTW Glenn, regardless of the outcome, I gotta go on the record here and say thanks for the civilized debate. For some inexplicable reason, I revisited a forum I used to frequent (work related), and very quickly remembered why I haven't been there in a while. Sheesh - talk about down in the gutter. >insert eye rolling emoticon here<

>>Where might I find those interviews?<<

Playboy interviews, 1980. The were published in paperback at one time, Lennon's interviews. Not sure if it's still in print.

Far as Whole Lotta and You Need, I think they're very similar all the way 'round, call it vibe, cadence. When I first heard the original I was shocked and the numerous similarities.

Y'all s'posed t'be shocked when ya hear th' original...so ever'thin' worked out alright, from where I be standin'...