Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

Talk about dredging up a long forgotten thread....................

winston wrote:Talk about dredging up a long forgotten thread....................

Well, I’ve been away, Beatle peedles.

I’m trying to get caught up.

jingle_jangle wrote:

route66guitars wrote:I just finished reading the 5 year old thread on the restoration of Lennons V81. What caused you to change your stance on the guitar, Paul? Back then you seemed to agree with me that it’s current condition is as it should be.

I guess I had a good think, Scott...

route66guitars wrote:You also mentioned McGuinn’s lightshow as an example of the lack of interest in vintage instruments at the time. I’m not sure where you got the information that it was for sale in 1981 for $1,500, but that was inaccurate. We restored that guitar in 1990, and offered it for sale for $10,000, on behalf of John Hall, who had traded Roger one of his 6 string lightshows for it. Prior to that date it sat in a box in Rickenbacker’s factory, broken into 3 pieces.

At the time I simply was not "into" Ricks, Scott. In fact, I knew nearly zero about them. I even thought the company had gone out of business sometime in the '60s.

The information on the LS was from a monthly vintage guitar newsletter that came from a dealer somewhere in the Midwest (Ohio, perhaps?). He had it for $1500.00, at the top of his list. Most unusual piece on the list. I thought, "who'd pay that for such a weird device?" (So, you see, I've changed my mind on that issue, too... ) It didn't sell, and the next month, he wrote that he was going to drop the price by $100.00 every month until it sold. It went for $900.00, six months later.

Maybe, Scott, if you save stuff like this, you might even have a copy of this newsletter; I kept all of mine for awhile and finally tossed them in a move a decade or so ago. It would have been something like late '80 through early '81. I know what I read, and you know what you know. Based on that, I'd say that what I read was erroneous.

Interesting. It’s likely that they were misinformed about the lightshow having been McGuinn’s and simply took someone’s word for it. I have some of my old mail out catalogs, but have long since shredded and recycled the ones from other dealers. It’s tough enough seeing what I was charging for things nearly 30 years ago...

Besides "having a good think", I believe that I was referring to the concept of "restoring" V81 back to its original state versus leaving it alone.

Anyway, I've skimmed the entire thread and can't find the reference.

dpowell wrote:The '64 325 is indeed in the Lennon Museum in Japan ( ). I saw it at the RRHOF in 2000, but I was too young to know what it really was!

I remember seeing Lennon's 1964 325 at the R 'n' R Hall of Fame also. I guess it was 2000. It was in a waist/chest high glass case, horizontal and flat on it's back with the head stock to the left. You could bend over and place your face close to the glass to really get a good close-up look at about 10 inches away. Since it was at the end of the glass case you could sight down the neck (rather straight from what I remember) and view it at different angles. I remember the strings appearing old and oxidized. What a sight! I couldn't believe it but there it was!

DavyR wrote:

dpowell wrote:The '64 325 is indeed in the Lennon Museum in Japan ( ). I saw it at the RRHOF in 2000, but I was too young to know what it really was!

I remember seeing Lennon's 1964 325 at the R 'n' R Hall of Fame also. I guess it was 2000. It was in a waist/chest high glass case, horizontal and flat on it's back with the head stock to the left. You could bend over and place your face close to the glass to really get a good close-up look at about 10 inches away. Since it was at the end of the glass case you could sight down the neck (rather straight from what I remember) and view it at different angles. I remember the strings appearing old and oxidized. What a sight! I couldn't believe it but there it was!

It's been nine years and my memory is fuzzy, but I seem to remember the guitar on the wall close to the ceiling, hanging with several others including his Les Paul junior. I know the 12-string 325 was in a glass case the last time I was there.

dpowell wrote:

DavyR wrote:

dpowell wrote:The '64 325 is indeed in the Lennon Museum in Japan ( ). I saw it at the RRHOF in 2000, but I was too young to know what it really was!

I remember seeing Lennon's 1964 325 at the R 'n' R Hall of Fame also. I guess it was 2000. It was in a waist/chest high glass case, horizontal and flat on it's back with the head stock to the left. You could bend over and place your face close to the glass to really get a good close-up look at about 10 inches away. Since it was at the end of the glass case you could sight down the neck (rather straight from what I remember) and view it at different angles. I remember the strings appearing old and oxidized. What a sight! I couldn't believe it but there it was!

It's been nine years and my memory is fuzzy, but I seem to remember the guitar on the wall close to the ceiling, hanging with several others including his Les Paul junior. I know the 12-string 325 was in a glass case the last time I was there.

I was up there a few weeks ago. The 325 12-string is now hanging on the wall! LOL! No 6-string. But they do now have one of the Studer 4-track decks used to record Sgt. Pepper on display.

kiramdear wrote:Here's his 325/12. I've seen a picture of John Hall holding this guitar before they (he?) handed it to John.


Here's a replica of John's '58 as it looked after he had it refinished the first time.

After having seen Lennon's 12 string at the RaRHOF last week I cannot believe what a hatchet job that
Rickenbacker made on the TRC on this guitar.
Wouldn't you think that handing a guitar over to one of the highest profile guitarists at the time that they would have
spent a few extra minutes and got their own logo looking as it should? Or in fact manufactured a TRC that actually fits this guitar?

things were a lot different in 65... Who knew they were gonna be the biggest band in the history of the planet... FC prolly thought he was wasting money at the time

I think Hall actually showed a great deal of foresight when he met them in NY with free guitars. If there was anybody in the guitar industry betting on the success of The Beatles, it was him.

I think they just cut the headstock channels very close together and couldn't fit the logo in between. It looks like the reissues had a wider central area for the TRC.

dpowell wrote:I think Hall actually showed a great deal of foresight when he met them in NY with free guitars. If there was anybody in the guitar industry betting on the success of The Beatles, it was him.

I think they just cut the headstock channels very close together and couldn't fit the logo in between. It looks like the reissues had a wider central area for the TRC.

You have to be kidding right? The Beatles were the ones who initiated the use of Rickenbackers guitars in the band, and Hall as any good operator got them playing more of his brand. But to imply that Hall was betting on unknowns to give new guitars to free is preposterous.

wozza62 wrote:

dpowell wrote:I think Hall actually showed a great deal of foresight when he met them in NY with free guitars. If there was anybody in the guitar industry betting on the success of The Beatles, it was him.

I think they just cut the headstock channels very close together and couldn't fit the logo in between. It looks like the reissues had a wider central area for the TRC.

You have to be kidding right? The Beatles were the ones who initiated the use of Rickenbackers guitars in the band, and Hall as any good operator got them playing more of his brand. But to imply that Hall was betting on unknowns to give new guitars to free is preposterous.

The Ed Sullivan Show appearance (Hall met with them while they were in NY to film it) was the first one that they made in America. Although they were on the charts already in America, it wasn't a sure thing that they'd be as big as they got, being a British group.

So maybe "betting" was the wrong term to use, as he probably didn't care very much about losing profits from three or four free guitars. But I do think it was a great business move. You certainly didn't see Gretsch, Hofner, or Fender approaching them that early in their careers.

dpowell wrote:

wozza62 wrote:

dpowell wrote:I think Hall actually showed a great deal of foresight when he met them in NY with free guitars. If there was anybody in the guitar industry betting on the success of The Beatles, it was him.

I think they just cut the headstock channels very close together and couldn't fit the logo in between. It looks like the reissues had a wider central area for the TRC.

You have to be kidding right? The Beatles were the ones who initiated the use of Rickenbackers guitars in the band, and Hall as any good operator got them playing more of his brand. But to imply that Hall was betting on unknowns to give new guitars to free is preposterous.

The Ed Sullivan Show appearance (Hall met with them while they were in NY to film it) was the first one that they made in America. Although they were on the charts already in America, it wasn't a sure thing that they'd be as big as they got, being a British group.

So maybe "betting" was the wrong term to use, as he probably didn't care very much about losing profits from three or four free guitars. But I do think it was a great business move. You certainly didn't see Gretsch, Hofner, or Fender approaching them that early in their careers.

This presentation was arranged between Epstein and Rickenbacker. Any claim that Francis Hall arrived in New York unannounced, or offering free guitars, is completely false. Rickenbacker were originally contacted to acquire a replacement for Lennon’s worn 1958 325. Lennon’s 325 was built for him. George’s 12 string was already sitting around the factory. It was completed to show him, but was not built from scratch for him.

The 4001S bass was built FOR McCartney, although without discussing it with Paul. It was the first left handed instrument the company had ever produced. This means the deal to get them the instruments in time for their Sullivan appearance was likely struck no later than mid November 1963, when it was agreed that Capitol would promote the release of I Want To Hold Your Hand in the US. (F.C. told me that back then it took 6 weeks start to finish to build one of their instruments.)

Lennon’s 325 was purchased by Epstein (against Lennon’s income) that day, and they placed the order that day for his 325-12. Harrison’s 360-12 was also purchased by Epstein, although the folklore is that a radio station bought it for him (this was a merging of the stories of the interview he did from his sick bed in January 1964 where he mentioned receiving his first 12 string, and the presentation of his second one in 1965 at a radio station sponsored tour press conference.)

McCartney was given the bass a year later, as he had declined to buy it in New York in 1964. (He is still very cheap when it comes to his instruments.) By January 1964 he was already well aware that the Höfner was a part of the band’s image, and they had a deal with Höfner to honor.

route66guitars wrote:McCartney was given the bass a year later, as he had declined to buy it in New York in 1964. (He is still very cheap when it comes to his instruments.) By January 1964 he was already well aware that the Höfner was a part of the band’s image, and they had a deal with Höfner to honor.

Scott, John Hall has made a few comments about this over the years at various times and threads. While the internal factory documents show the 'born-on-date' for Paul's 4001-S as around 24-25 January 1964, JH has said that the company failed to bring a left-handed bass to NYC for Paul to try out, as it was an oversight about Paul being left-handed and F.C. apologizing for not thinking of this.....at any rate it was his roughly 18 months later.

Maybe it wasn't quite ready or had other issues, but there was a 10-12 day window from the date on the Radio-tel doc sheet on Paul's bass and when F.C. met The Beatles at The Savoy.

leftybass wrote:

route66guitars wrote:McCartney was given the bass a year later, as he had declined to buy it in New York in 1964. (He is still very cheap when it comes to his instruments.) By January 1964 he was already well aware that the Höfner was a part of the band’s image, and they had a deal with Höfner to honor.

Scott, John Hall has made a few comments about this over the years at various times and threads. While the internal factory documents show the 'born-on-date' for Paul's 4001-S as around 24-25 January 1964, JH has said that the company failed to bring a left-handed bass to NYC for Paul to try out, as it was an oversight about Paul being left-handed and F.C. apologizing for not thinking of this.....at any rate it was his roughly 18 months later.

Maybe it wasn't quite ready or had other issues, but there was a 10-12 day window from the date on the Radio-tel doc sheet on Paul's bass and when F.C. met The Beatles at The Savoy.

John’s stories have changed considerably over time, and he was a teenager with very little interest in his father’s company at that time. I talked with F.C. about that trip one day when I was at the factory. (It’s how I found out about the second bass…) Even after he retired he was often in his office when I visited. Rickenbacker built their first left handed instrument to put in the hands of a Beatle, but forgot about the instrument when it was time to head for New York? It’s complete nonsense that F.C. didn’t think of this when it was the very reason the bass was built.

If the bass appeared on a Radio-Tel invoice (sales), not a Rickenbacker invoice (manufacturing), that meant it had already left the factory and been delivered to the sales office by Rickenbacker, right? This pretty much guarantees the bass was completed, as in 1964 they weren’t in the same building. I’ve never seen the Radio-Tel invoice for the 4001S, who does it list as being the Customer? There are photos in RIC’s archives of the hotel room where F.C. set up the display for the Beatles, and the 4001S was there. Maybe John or one of RIC’s employees on the forum who had access to the Radio-Tel invoice will post the image of the hotel room display.