What erks me.

[jingle_jangle]

Jim, you got it, anytime you are ready.

Thanks for the notice, Scott. I'm going to follow those Internet capitalization rules from this point on, you betcha!

Now, you will notice that, in my "generalization" about Detroit and cars, I included a qualifying phrase: "with some exceptions".

Being in the automotive profession, and having been fairly deeply ensconced in the industry for several decades, I had lots of friends (still do) who are "on the inside", and as a matter of fact, we placed a good half-dozen recent grads in the design studios at the Tech Center, just in the past few months.

Again, my opinion is that, roughly the year I began driving, cars from Detroit began to go to the Devil. And although many of you already know the following, bear with me anyway...

Factual basis and back story: In 1946, Detroit was converting from wartime production back to their peacetime products. GIs were coming home and hungering for new wheels by the hundreds of thousands, and there was a hue and cry by leaders of both the steel and auto workers unions to build cars more like what was coming out of Europe--family cars that sipped gas, took up less space, cost less to produce, buy, and own, and would help the people as well as the industry, to get back on their feet and put the war years of austerity behind them. In collusion, the heads of the Big Four decided, instead, to take a "bigger, better, more expensive and complicated" approach to automaking, and to focus on fashion rather than engineering. They did this for one simple reason: there was much more profit per unit in big cars than in small. America was flexing her muscles once again, and the Consumer was about to become her King and Consort.

That got us into the pickle we found ourselves in back in '64, when the fallout of Nader's Unsafe At Any Speed began to make itself felt in Detroit's boardrooms, as carmakers were forced to grapple with the realities of driver and passenger safety and environmental impact. Through endless negotiations with Congress, the sharp point of the sword was rounded and safety and emissions legislation began to take effect very gradually. Detroit took from 1967--when the very first soft knobs appeared on radios and window winders--through roughly 1980 or 81, when cars finally began to operate more efficiently and look less monstrous, Detroit struggled to meet government regulations and maintain their market share, and beginning in earnest in 1971, watched the opportunistic and entrepreneurial Japanese and Koreans flood the market with (mostly) inexpensive, small, reliable cars.

Between 1968 and 1979, Detroit produced a lot of junk while struggling to play catch up. They also produced a very few gems. I've been fond of Detroit cars since I first began to drive (Chicagoan by birth; bought American cars only, until new ones became impractical to buy), but haven't seen the need to own a piece of machinery that might work, would rust, and didn't feel special to drive anymore.

I'm not a Detroit basher--please don't Tarr me with that worn-out brush--but the ruins of a once-mighty city and the industry that gave it life are all there for us to see, and it's a tragedy wrought by the Presidents of GM, Ford, Chrysler, and American Motors (who?) that began on that day in 1946 when Walter Reuther's call to common sense was roundly rejected by arrogant corporate demigods.

The low point of Detroit style and engineering (for the most part--there's that qualifier again!) was in those years between 1968 and 1980, when all our bad decisions began to collect their ransom.

That's the very long version of a very brief but important phrase.

[Tarrbot]

I do believe you see yourself as a bit of a wordsmith, Paul. What I don't think you realize is that your tone is a bit off.

I stated that you made a comment on Detroit which I believe was undeserved and gave several reasons why I believe this.

Your rebuttal was nothing more than a history-filled statement of a qualifier, that although was proper--inferred to me that while your qualifier was there, your thesis was that Detroit was a bit rubbish.

And I'll leave it at that.

My point... again... is that Detroit isn't as rubbish as people love to detail. A bit like the schools here when a reporter comes to town. The reporter almost always shows Cass Tech and the state of disrepair it's in.

Never, not once, has one of those reporters shown an image across the street. And that's the New Cass Tech building.

This is what I'm getting at. While your qualifier was indeed in place, I believe it was a bit biased and unfair.

And I do honestly believe you mean no disrespect or harm. But I also believe that your tone is quite... off-putting.

[jingle_jangle]

Yeah, Scott, I was kind of wondering if it would hit you the wrong way. I do get a bit wordy, and though your own tone implies "wordsmith" is a pejorative, if its pure meaning is "writer"--well, I spend several hours a day writing as part of my profession.

Detroit is not "a bit rubbish" in my book. I just feel that the irony is that the very men who benefited most from keeping it alive and bustling, were responsible for its current condition, through greed, short-sightedness, and neglect, spread out over three generations.

Some of the best Greek food I've ever had, was in Greektown. I spent a lot of productive days at the GM Tech Center library and in their various garages, researching different dream car projects. One of my favorite drives--and a way to clear my head--used to be to take Jefferson Ave. out of downtown through the suburbs along Lake St Clair. I haven't been back for awhile...

I have gaped at the incredible Diego Rivera murals, commissioned by Edsel Ford and reviled by his father.

I think Detroit is a tremendous place, and hope for a revitalization that sticks. RenCen didn't.

Don't be defensive about Detroit. My comments are in earnest. You won't hear any Detroit jokes from me.

[RIC_FACTORY]

Congratulations to all on what must be considered, hands down, the most meandering thread in the history of the Internet. You good folks have covered signature guitars, English grammar, the decline of the American automobile industry, and have even provided us with a lesson on Internet psychology as you guys tiptoe around each other with vague sarcasm, trying to guess each other's intentions. All in a mere five pages!

I think we ought to nominate this thread for a Webby. All you have to do is read the misspelled title to know you're in for one wild ride. I just wanted to post this before the thread gets locked up, for posterity's sake (kind of like writing your name in the cement before it dries up). Although, I think it would be great if the mods would leave it open and see where this Plinko chip of a thread goes.

[Scastles]

Congratulations to all on what must be considered, hands down, the most meandering thread in the history of the Internet. You good folks have covered signature guitars, English grammar, the decline of the American automobile industry, and have even provided us with a lesson on Internet psychology as you guys tiptoe around each other with vague sarcasm, trying to guess each other's intentions. All in a mere five pages!

I think we ought to nominate this thread for a Webby. All you have to do is read the misspelled title to know you're in for one wild ride. I just wanted to post this before the thread gets locked up, for posterity's sake (kind of like writing your name in the cement before it dries up). Although, I think it would be great if the mods would leave it open and see where this Plinko chip of a thread goes.

Yes, please don't lock this thread. There are so many other subjects left to cover, like the price of rice in China.

[ken_j]

.... I just feel that the irony is that the very men who benefited most from keeping it alive and bustling, were responsible for its current condition, through greed, short-sightedness, and neglect, spread out over three generations...

You are just scratching the surface. I know that I as well as you could most likely write a book, but where to begin? I know that the most miserable time in my twenty some year career with GM was spent at the Tech Center. The culture and infighting there is unbelieable. Lucky for me that was only 7 years of my life. With a work environment like like I was surprised that anything creative was produced. Thank God there were other engineering sites still operating at the time. They are down to just a few now. I left when I could take it no more.

[just_bassics]

Congratulations to all on what must be considered, hands down, the most meandering thread in the history of the Internet. You good folks have covered signature guitars, English grammar, the decline of the American automobile industry, and have even provided us with a lesson on Internet psychology as you guys tiptoe around each other with vague sarcasm, trying to guess each other's intentions. All in a mere five pages!.....

Coast Guard! Don't forget the Coast Guard, Ben! In my family we love the "Puddle Navy!"

(Sorry, inside joke - I'm an ex Navy Chief, my father still serves as a CG Auxiliary Captain. I love to tease him about being a "puddle pirate". No offense to any CG vets out there...)

[elreydlp]

Congratulations to all on what must be considered, hands down, the most meandering thread in the history of the Internet. You good folks have covered signature guitars, English grammar, the decline of the American automobile industry, and have even provided us with a lesson on Internet psychology as you guys tiptoe around each other with vague sarcasm, trying to guess each other's intentions. All in a mere five pages!

I think we ought to nominate this thread for a Webby. All you have to do is read the misspelled title to know you're in for one wild ride. I just wanted to post this before the thread gets locked up, for posterity's sake (kind of like writing your name in the cement before it dries up). Although, I think it would be great if the mods would leave it open and see where this Plinko chip of a thread goes.

+1, but then again, it's "The Others".

[JakeK]

Can anyone tell me why I'm 20 years old and have been single for 21?



(Just trying to make this wild ride wilder!)

[jingle_jangle]

Ben, you sound erked!

[winston]

I have no intention of locking this thread and speaking for Tony (who is away at the moment), neither does he. This has been a great read and yes it has come close to the edge a few times, but then by there's another twist and turn and it wanders back again towards something that greatly resembles civility.

Did I misspell any words or otherwise make a mess of the English language in this post Paul?

[Clint]

Close to the edge. Down by the river...

[analogpackrat]

This thread has definitely been Beneath, Between, and Beyond, perhaps even Beyond and Before, in a Roundabout sort of way. At least once it made Perfect Circle before Catapulting off into the Heart of the Sunrise. For a time it seemed Over the Hills and Far Away on a Long Distance Runaround with more Changes than a Frank Zappa tune. You folks really should really Find Your Way Back.

Ramble On...

[just_bassics]

Posts to the edge? (ducking!)

[woodyng]

ok then....i think most RIC sig models are ace,but always scratched my head over the "glenn frey bass".....which is still a great looking instrument. (it does not urk me too much,tho)