Vox Amps Big vs. Small

BuddyDog · Post by **BuddyDog** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:19 pm

Folkie wrote:There's been a new development. I walked into our local Sam Ash yesterday, and they had two AC30's: a new one with two Celestion Greenbacks and a used one with one Celestion speaker (I'm not sure if it's an Alnico Blue). The used one is priced at $699, which is only $100 more than a new AC15 (and, of course, $100 cheaper than having North Coast Music replace the Greenback in a new AC15 with an Alnico Blue). I tried lifting the amp, and it really gave me a workout, and I didn't have my Ricks or Janglebox with me to try it out. Also, the controls are slightly different from a standard AC30. I wish I could remember the exact model number. Can anyone tell me more about the single-speaker AC30?

Robert

The AC30C1 with a single speaker is probably not a Celestion Blue as they are only rated for 15 watts. I have never heard an AC30C1, so if I were you I would audition it extensively against a normal AC30 and an AC15 before pulling the trigger.

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:48 pm

Question: The Celeston Blue speakers are made to be more trebly?
I have them in both my AC 30 and 15, and dang, they're both too trebly for me.

Folkie · Post by **Folkie** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:49 pm

I have yet to find an amp that sounds too trebly with my Rick 12's. I guess I prefer the brighter jangle of the 7.4K toasters with my Princeton Chorus. So now I have two options: either replace the hi gains on my 330/12 with 7.4K toasters (a bit complicated, as the pickups are black, so I would have to buy black toaster covers in addition to the scatterwounds), or buy myself an AC15C1, which makes my 330/12 really chime. I might have to do a back to back comparison of my Fender Princeton Chorus and the AC15C1 with the Celestion Greenback. If I'm feeling adventurous, I might have North Coast upgrade the AC15C1 with an Alnico Blue. Hey, I never tried a guitar with toaster tops before I bought the 360/12, and I absolutely love the sound of the 7.4Ks!

Robert

crimson_dynamo · Post by **crimson_dynamo** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:42 am

BuddyDog wrote:I don't think you can use a line out on a tube amp as it need a speaker load of some sort, or they go "poof" in a cloud of smoke and fried transformers

I got a Palmer load box to use with my Zinky blue velvet (google that if you want to see a cool looking amp)- it goes between the "head" and the speaker(even though it's a combo) and provides a killer XLR out balanced signal for the sound man. A bonus is that it sounds a lot better in my in ears than a mic.

8mileshigher · Post by **8mileshigher** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:25 pm

shamustwin wrote:Question: The Celeston Blue speakers are made to be more trebly?
I have them in both my AC 30 and 15, and dang, they're both too trebly for me.

Yes the Alnico Blues are more chime and treble.
If you want more beef, I can sell you the ceramic magnet Wharfedale speakers that came originally in my AC-30. They are in top notch shape.

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:00 pm

Hmmm... might be worth a try. If I like the Wharffies, I can finally throw out those stinkin' blues.

Folkie · Post by **Folkie** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:47 pm

I finally tried out the used Vox AC30CC1 at Sam Ash. The price is $699, it has one 12-inch Bull Dog speaker, and it seems to be in good condition. I auditioned the amp with a new Jetglo 330/12 from off the wall. The guitar and amp combination was near perfect, and with the treble knob at about 2:30, I really got some nice chime. The combo sounded great for Byrds and Beatles stuff and even better for early R.E.M. songs.

I took the liberty of doing an A/B comparison with a used Roland JC-120, and the Vox beat the Roland hands down. (The bright setting on the JC-120 created some nice jangle, but the overall sound was too thin.) Because the Roland is quite similar to my Fender Princeton Chorus, I think I can justify owning a Vox as my second amp. But the AC30C11 was awfully heavy to lift, and I'd feel better buying a new amp.

So I'm left with a few options. I could order an AC15 with a Bull Dog speaker. I could order an AC15 with the stock Celestion Greenback. Or I could have North Coast Music upgrade the speaker in an AC15 to an Alnico Blue. Granted, I've never actually heard an Alnico Blue, but, as I've said elsewhere, I like lots of treble and chime. Whatever the case, the Vox amps sound very different from my Fender, and should be good for different applications. For instance, the AC30CC1 really nailed the 12-string sound on R.E.M.'s "Pretty Persuasion," "Green Grow the Rushes," "Good Advices," and "Wendell Gee."

I'd be interested to hear other players' takes on the Bull Dog speaker and how it compares to the Alnico Blue. To me it sounded bright and jangly, but others may feel different. I'm really leaning towards ordering from North Coast Music because they seem to be experts, and they give the amps a full trial workout before sending them. They're also the only place I know of who will upgrade speakers.

So there are several factors figuring in to my amp decision. If anyone else has more advice, please chime in!

Robert

8mileshigher · Post by **8mileshigher** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:13 pm

Folkie wrote: If anyone else has more advice, please chime in!

Robert, I think by your choice of verb "chime" there, you are zoned in on the Alnico Blue !

The previously mentioned Vintage Amps Forum

, with its own Vox section, is a big wealth of knowledge and certainly has some astute opinions posted by working musicians and other enthusiasts about the good and bad aspects of Bulldogs, Wharfies, Alnico Blues, Greenbacks, prior year's issued Celestion Alnico speakers and the like. The Celestion Greenbacks replaced the Wharfies, as the standard ceramic magnet speaker, when Vox started the "c" series production and relocated to a new China factory. (Vox's formerly-famous vertically integrated factory in China is now manufacturing Wharfedale amps with the former Vox Director at the helm, after the Vox corporate shakeup around 2009-2010).

You inquired about test-hearing some Alnico Blues -- there are several guys on the Vintage Amps Forum who have posted links to recordings (or to their MySpace pages), where they have A/B'd several Vox speaker configurations. If you are totally undecided on Alnico vrs. ceramic magnet -- the wisdom of Solomon solution is the Grog Mod. [An AC-30 cc with one Wharf and one English Blue]. Grog has posted several sound links on the aforementioned Vintage Amps Forum.

Seems that most folks have usually had good stuff to say about North Coast Music.

Looks like your choices on AC 15 vrs AC 30 will come down to size/weight to lug around and the venues the amp will be used for. I'm sure you will be happy with whatever choice you end up making. I concur with Buddydog that the AC30C1 most probably has a ceramic magnet speaker, since 30 watts into a single speaker config would blow out a 15 watt Alnico Blue. It should identify this on the specs, on the Vox corporate website.

With your appreciation of chime and jangle --- the Alnico Blues are where you are headed.

larsongs · Post by **larsongs** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:34 pm

Folkie wrote:I finally tried out the used Vox AC30CC1 at Sam Ash. The price is $699, it has one 12-inch Bull Dog speaker, and it seems to be in good condition. I auditioned the amp with a new Jetglo 330/12 from off the wall. The guitar and amp combination was near perfect, and with the treble knob at about 2:30, I really got some nice chime. The combo sounded great for Byrds and Beatles stuff and even better for early R.E.M. songs.

I took the liberty of doing an A/B comparison with a used Roland JC-120, and the Vox beat the Roland hands down. (The bright setting on the JC-120 created some nice jangle, but the overall sound was too thin.) Because the Roland is quite similar to my Fender Princeton Chorus, I think I can justify owning a Vox as my second amp. But the AC30C11 was awfully heavy to lift, and I'd feel better buying a new amp.

So I'm left with a few options. I could order an AC15 with a Bull Dog speaker. I could order an AC15 with the stock Celestion Greenback. Or I could have North Coast Music upgrade the speaker in an AC15 to an Alnico Blue. Granted, I've never actually heard an Alnico Blue, but, as I've said elsewhere, I like lots of treble and chime. Whatever the case, the Vox amps sound very different from my Fender, and should be good for different applications. For instance, the AC30CC1 really nailed the 12-string sound on R.E.M.'s "Pretty Persuasion," "Green Grow the Rushes," "Good Advices," and "Wendell Gee."

I'd be interested to hear other players' takes on the Bull Dog speaker and how it compares to the Alnico Blue. To me it sounded bright and jangly, but others may feel different. I'm really leaning towards ordering from North Coast Music because they seem to be experts, and they give the amps a full trial workout before sending them.

They're also the only place I know of who will upgrade speakers.

So there are several factors figuring in to my amp decision. If anyone else has more advice, please chime in!

Robert

I have purchased a Hofner Bass & a Rick 360 12 String from NCM. The Guitars are hand selected & are beautiful. They also do a Pro Setup so they play right out of the box. His deals are completive & in some cases even better than the competition. He knows his you know what when it comes to Vox, Rick, Hofner & Gretsch. Particularly Beatle related Gear.

I imagine his attention to Amps would be similar.

I am planning on buying a Rick 4003 Bass from them in the near future. I already have a Vox AC15CC1X so I'm covered there. If I didn't I would buy the Modded NCM AC15C1 with Alnico Blues + Chrome Stand + Cover from NCM.

If I ever need an AC30 I'd probably buy from them also as my past experiences have bee excellent.

The Beatles Vox Amps had Alnico Blues & their sound was pretty good.

Folkie · Post by **Folkie** » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:09 pm

Thanks for the advice, Rich! I still haven't checked out the Plexi Palace Vintage Amps Forum, because I'm a little afraid I'll be overwhelmed by all the data.

But I will visit that site soon.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:03 am

1. North Coast is a top flight dealer. I bought my AC30 through them and received fantastic service. Better than fantastic. True story: I was ready to buy my amp from North Coast and then the owner e-mailed me and suggested that I wait about two weeks because he scheduled a sale on the model that I was buying. Saved me close to $200! I was already buying at the price on the site and he could have easily not sent me that e-mail. Thought that was very cool that he did.

2. Regarding Alnico speakers. You may not want to hear this (and many guys will not admit this), but the difference between the speakers (Alnico Blues and Wharfdales or Bulldogs or whatever) are not worth the exorbitant price you will pay for the Alnico Blues. Mainly, we are dealing with a bit of buyer's pride here. If you paid an extra $600 for speakers would you be shouting from the mountaintops that they really are not that much different than the cheaper speakers? Bottom line is there are some guys who have posted (Plexi Palace is a great forum for honesty and knowledge) that flat out say that the Alnico Blues are NOT worth the price of the upgrade. Sure, some say there is a slight difference, but there is no "Oh, my GOD!" moment when you play those speakers next to the Wharfdales or other Vox speakers. And for $600 don't you feel there should be a very clear, vast difference between those Alnico's and other speakers? Some say there isn't.

3. You say you "like treble and chime." Yes, to the chime, but be careful what you wish for when it comes to Vox treble...it is waaaaaaaay out there. So out there that a ton of guys have performed surgery on their amp, they clip a cap in their amps to cut down on the treble -- "the bright cap mod." I love treble more than anyone on Earth, but, man, even I was overwhelmed by the treble from a Vox. Certain guitars into a Vox can literally wipe out an entire nation's army just with that treble. Be prepared for un-Godly treble from your Vox. You will see that some guitars/pickups combos (Strat in neck pickup, for instance) are very tough to deal with in a Vox.

Good luck.

8mileshigher · Post by **8mileshigher** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:05 pm

Tommy, its very refreshing to hear a story like that about North Coast giving the consumer the benefit of the upcoming Sale.

I'm sure they have earned it back by your returning there for more purchases. I've bought Vox speaker grill cloth from NCM before and they ship quckly and are easy to deal with.

Re price of Celestion Alnico's ---- as an alternative, several folks give top ratings to Weber Alnico's and they are more competitively priced.

Know what you mean about the Treble overload.... I've been using the "Tone Cut" knob heavily

on my AC-30 since I installed the Alnico Blues.

I've also read up a little on the Bright Cap Mod over there on the Plexi Vintage Amps Forum. I also understand on the "cc" series that you can replace the V2 position tube (second stage) to a different spec, that will give more Mid Range boost and hence ease the Treble. That Vintage Amps Forum is a great source of info on some fascinating topics about Vox amps, such as speakers, tubes, transformers, various mods, DIY projects and the like. Its the next-best gear place, after the RRF !!

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:24 pm

8mileshigher wrote:Tommy, its very refreshing to hear a story like that about North Coast giving the consumer the benefit of the upcoming Sale. I'm sure they have earned it back by your returning there for more purchases.

I also understand on the "cc" series that you can replace the V1 position tube to a different spec, that will give more Mid Range boost and hence ease the Treble.

That Vintage Amps Forum is a great source of info on some fascinating topics..

Well, yes, North Coast has been my first choice for certain purchases because of that e-mail suggesting I don't buy right away because a sale is coming up in a few weeks. It was a fine thing to do..and also shrewd on their part. Not only did I buy more things from them, but I pass the word about how their service was very helpful to me.

EQing a Vox amp is tricky. I've discovered that all guitars must have their own settings. I've also discovered that if things get too trebly on my Vox I just plug in a BOSS EQ pedal.

Yeah, the Vintage Amps Forum is a huge plus to any amp owner. Fantastic info and help there.

Folkie · Post by **Folkie** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:04 pm

Tommy,

Thanks so much for the thoughtful responses to my questions. A friend of mine, and several people here, have told me that North Coast Music is a class act. As far as I know, they're the only ones who will check your amp for defects before sending it. And, if I recall correctly, they may be the only place that upgrades speakers on request. The only downside of ordering from them is that you pay for their expertise when it comes to the return policy (Like other class acts: Pick of the Ricks or Janglebox, for instance, they only offer a 48 hour return period. Compare this to 45 days at Musician's Friend!)

It's obvious that each of us has a different set of ears and that the differences between speakers are very subjective. I'd have to say that I really loved both the Greenback in the AC15C1 I tried, and the Bulldog in the AC30CC1. I'm not so sure about the "exorbitant price" of the Alnico Blues. I'm in the market for an AC15, so it would only cost me an additional $300 to replace the speaker ($600 is way too much, agreed.) In the past, when I've been unable to audition pickups or pedals, I've relied heavily on word of mouth. Specifically, when I was in the market for a Janglebox JB2, I had no idea how it would sound with my gear, but I was so impressed with the feedback here that I sprung for one. It's been one of the best effects purchases I've ever made. Similarly, when I decided to have Chris Clayton put scatterwounds on my 2010 360/12, I had never played a guitar with Toasters. The sound was such an improvement over the hi gains on my 330/12 that it shattered my ears and has really spoiled me. And talk about expensive: those pickups cost $150 a piece!

As I said, excessive treble has never been an issue for me. When I tried out the AC15C1 (with Celestion Greenback), I believe I had the Treble knob at about 2:OO, roughly two-thirds of the way up. My 330/12 with the hi gains sounded really pretty, even better with the Janglebox kicked in. I noticed no harshness or excessive treble (and the Janglebox has a treble boost). When I plugged in a rosewood neck Strat, it sounded great as well. I can certainly imagine that my 360/12 with 7.4K Toasters might sound too harsh through that amp. Through my Fender Princeton Chorus it can generate too much treble, so I tend to keep the little knob on the guitar in about the middle position. I suppose I could just try my 360/12 through the Greenback speaker.

I'd be interested to know how you set your tone knobs on your AC30. Do you back the Treble all the way off? Where do you have the Mid and Bass knobs? What about the Tone Cut? Also, do you play a Rick 12, and does it have scatterwound pickups? Finally, do you use a compressor with a treble boost like a Janglebox?

I always appreciate it when someone has the courage to go against the trend on this forum.

Thanks, Tommy, for playing devil's advocate.

Robert

larsongs · Post by **larsongs** » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:17 pm

I purchased 2 Vox AC15's with Wharfdales. Personally, I found them harsh & Ice Pick sounding. I opted for one with Alnico Blues & it sounds Fab.

I liken it the difference in sound between, just an example, a Gretsch G5120 & a Greatsch G6120. Both are fine Guitars but there is a reason why one cost's more.

From my experience I believe it to be true with the Alnico Blues vs. the others.

It's subjective for sure. Some will diagree & I respect that. Just listen to early mid Beatles era. If you like that sound you'll like Alnicos. That's what they used.

Try one of the AC15C1's. Can't hurt. They are in all the Guitar Centers & they are a good buy. You'll know if it sounds good to your ears. If it does, take one home. If not, get NCM's with Alnico Blues or a used one with Alnico's. If you should ever want to sell it, you probably won't, but if you did it will be an extremely desirable Amp unlike one with all them modded with after Market wannabe's.

NCM also does a run test for several hours to sort of break it in. They also do an evaluation to make sure everything is right.

Glenn

Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum