I can wail too. I was moving my amp last night, it slipped my grasp and I dropped the thing on my foot.
I was wailing probably better than any of those other guys. I threw in the added talent of hopping up and down.
John as a guitarist?
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beatlefreak
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Of course John, Paul and George were good guitarists. Let's not forget that in the Beatles formative years (notably 1960-1962), they spent a lot of time playing in Hamburg.
During those three years, they made five trips to Germany, often for months at a time. While there, they played clubs seven nights a week, usually for five to six hours each night - without a day off! Talk about paying your dues. There was no time to rehearse. They just tried out new songs on the audience that night.
It didn't let up much once they got back to Liverpool, either. They played most days, many times two (or even three) gigs a day. Then Epstein came along, and it was a constant barrage of gigs, radio and TV appearances.
Of course they were good. They couldn't help not to be.
During those three years, they made five trips to Germany, often for months at a time. While there, they played clubs seven nights a week, usually for five to six hours each night - without a day off! Talk about paying your dues. There was no time to rehearse. They just tried out new songs on the audience that night.
It didn't let up much once they got back to Liverpool, either. They played most days, many times two (or even three) gigs a day. Then Epstein came along, and it was a constant barrage of gigs, radio and TV appearances.
Of course they were good. They couldn't help not to be.
Ka is a wheel.
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westtexasrickenbacker
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westtexasrickenbacker
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studiotwosession
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>>On the issue of 'wailing' comparisons...there's journeyman-like competence, and then there's otherworldly ability...<<
And there's gratuitous wankery (often enhanced by effects) which is often mistaken for otherworldly ability (especially when one's stoned, as a lot of crowds were when it was in to stretch your three minute songs into 15 minute wank fests, otherwise known as set padding, which it seems so many bands have done ever since, whereas the fabs could have played two hours in the late 60s without stretching out a single tune. Here's to being prolific.)
Of the three Beatles guitarists, only Macca is known as a Hendrix fan. George was the biggest fan of guitar players per se. But I think it's a fair bet that all three of them were less impressed with a lot of the rampant, marathon solo-ing (in some cases of their friends) that was going on from '67-70 than they admired the songwriting, or bands in question. The teenagers who were lapping it up are in most cases the ones who now are calling it "otherworldly."
I'm sticking to my story that all three were great guitar players and could have wailed all night with the best of them if they wanted to (and did on the White Album but decided against making it a 2 lp set.)
Often they said as much or more in a 20 second solo as anyone on the planet did in any length of time. And they did it first (cue up Taxman, which was out before the Experience had put out anything, Cream had sold in quantity, etc.)
And don't get me wrong, I love those bands. Funny that the Band ended up being one of Harrison's favorite bands. A lot of great tunes and musicianship there, but not exactly guitar virtuoso stuff (but oh yeah, Robbie could wail, too. You'd have to see the Last Waltz to hear it though.)
And there's gratuitous wankery (often enhanced by effects) which is often mistaken for otherworldly ability (especially when one's stoned, as a lot of crowds were when it was in to stretch your three minute songs into 15 minute wank fests, otherwise known as set padding, which it seems so many bands have done ever since, whereas the fabs could have played two hours in the late 60s without stretching out a single tune. Here's to being prolific.)
Of the three Beatles guitarists, only Macca is known as a Hendrix fan. George was the biggest fan of guitar players per se. But I think it's a fair bet that all three of them were less impressed with a lot of the rampant, marathon solo-ing (in some cases of their friends) that was going on from '67-70 than they admired the songwriting, or bands in question. The teenagers who were lapping it up are in most cases the ones who now are calling it "otherworldly."
I'm sticking to my story that all three were great guitar players and could have wailed all night with the best of them if they wanted to (and did on the White Album but decided against making it a 2 lp set.)
Often they said as much or more in a 20 second solo as anyone on the planet did in any length of time. And they did it first (cue up Taxman, which was out before the Experience had put out anything, Cream had sold in quantity, etc.)
And don't get me wrong, I love those bands. Funny that the Band ended up being one of Harrison's favorite bands. A lot of great tunes and musicianship there, but not exactly guitar virtuoso stuff (but oh yeah, Robbie could wail, too. You'd have to see the Last Waltz to hear it though.)
This is off the record
You too Alex. I'm getting ready for Aitch. He'll be arriving on Wednesday fresh from a stay at Pauls and being a participant in RIC's 75th Anniversary celebrations.
On the topic at hand:
I have read with interest the debate so far about how good the Beatles as guitar players are/were as compared to a whole litany of other players.
I believe that people like Clapton and Hendrix and to some degree Jeff Beck learned their craft in an entirely different manner. They all served IIRC either R&B or blues apprenticeships. The Beatles on the other hand played every genre as someone (perhaps Glenn?) has already mentioned.
Hendrix et al did get involved in some self indulgent experimenting on stage in the middle of a communication revolution that was happening at the same time. As a consequence everything they did was covered by some form of media outlet. So all of their brilliance and some of their less stellar moments have been caught on tape for all and sundry to listen to.
The Beatles were able to hone their chops in relative anonymity especially in the very early days of their career.
Some of the stuff Hendrix did was arguably very good and his obvious talent shone through and perhaps, some of his stuff not so good.
Early on the Beatles wrote virtually every tune as if it were going to be released as a single. Most songs were close to the old three minute maximum rule for airplay. Hendrix, Clapton etc started breaking that unwritten, but strictly enforced rule with reckless abandon.
Were the Beatles any better than others as musicians? Not really. Were they any worse? Perhaps to some, but then again perhaps to others they were not. The one thing the Beatles had that all the others did not, was professional guidance and the uncanny knowledge of how to put together a song on a record that would sell.
They also had marketing skills that even today are unparalleled. IMO
On the topic at hand:
I have read with interest the debate so far about how good the Beatles as guitar players are/were as compared to a whole litany of other players.
I believe that people like Clapton and Hendrix and to some degree Jeff Beck learned their craft in an entirely different manner. They all served IIRC either R&B or blues apprenticeships. The Beatles on the other hand played every genre as someone (perhaps Glenn?) has already mentioned.
Hendrix et al did get involved in some self indulgent experimenting on stage in the middle of a communication revolution that was happening at the same time. As a consequence everything they did was covered by some form of media outlet. So all of their brilliance and some of their less stellar moments have been caught on tape for all and sundry to listen to.
The Beatles were able to hone their chops in relative anonymity especially in the very early days of their career.
Some of the stuff Hendrix did was arguably very good and his obvious talent shone through and perhaps, some of his stuff not so good.
Early on the Beatles wrote virtually every tune as if it were going to be released as a single. Most songs were close to the old three minute maximum rule for airplay. Hendrix, Clapton etc started breaking that unwritten, but strictly enforced rule with reckless abandon.
Were the Beatles any better than others as musicians? Not really. Were they any worse? Perhaps to some, but then again perhaps to others they were not. The one thing the Beatles had that all the others did not, was professional guidance and the uncanny knowledge of how to put together a song on a record that would sell.
They also had marketing skills that even today are unparalleled. IMO
“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” - Albert Einstein
"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother" - Albert Einstein
"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother" - Albert Einstein
"The teenagers who were lapping it up are in most cases the ones who now are calling it "otherworldly." "...a little bit personal there Glenn, but I can take it. I'll certainly confess to 'lapping up' as much Hendrix as I could in those years, but that goes for the Beatles, too...and I wasn't stoned, either...that would have to wait 'til my first year in college in '74.
There was plenty of 'gratuitous wankery' in those days as you say, but I wouldn't go sticking that characterization on Jimi. Saying that 'the fabs' could have wailed with the best of them reminds me of the time that geek from Fleetwood Mac (can't remember his name...you know, "sentimental gentle wind" dude) said in an interview that 'if he wanted to' he could play all that Mahavishnu stuff, but he just couldn't be bothered to practice that much. Er, I think not...
In like manner, "...the fabs could have played two hours in the late 60s without stretching out a single tune...." Yeah, they could have, but didn't ever, except for that one gig on the roof.
"Some of the stuff Hendrix did was arguably very good..." Hope you don't mind, Brian, but I'm nominating that one for understatement of the year...
How about if we try admiring all these great musicians for their individual strengths and contributions, rather than lapsing into the 'my dad could most likely have beat up your dad' line of logic...
There was plenty of 'gratuitous wankery' in those days as you say, but I wouldn't go sticking that characterization on Jimi. Saying that 'the fabs' could have wailed with the best of them reminds me of the time that geek from Fleetwood Mac (can't remember his name...you know, "sentimental gentle wind" dude) said in an interview that 'if he wanted to' he could play all that Mahavishnu stuff, but he just couldn't be bothered to practice that much. Er, I think not...
In like manner, "...the fabs could have played two hours in the late 60s without stretching out a single tune...." Yeah, they could have, but didn't ever, except for that one gig on the roof.
"Some of the stuff Hendrix did was arguably very good..." Hope you don't mind, Brian, but I'm nominating that one for understatement of the year...
How about if we try admiring all these great musicians for their individual strengths and contributions, rather than lapsing into the 'my dad could most likely have beat up your dad' line of logic...
I didn't get where I am today by being on time...
Well Dane go ahead an nominate what I said all you like.
I said that because some people I hung around with back then (who incidentally are not musicians but were in the biz) just did not like some of Hendrix's material or recordings.
Personally I did.
There again by contrast, I did not like the Doors music personally. I have accepted their place in history, but I still don't particularly like much that they did, outside of a couple of their more commercial renderings.
I said that because some people I hung around with back then (who incidentally are not musicians but were in the biz) just did not like some of Hendrix's material or recordings.
Personally I did.
There again by contrast, I did not like the Doors music personally. I have accepted their place in history, but I still don't particularly like much that they did, outside of a couple of their more commercial renderings.
“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” - Albert Einstein
"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother" - Albert Einstein
"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother" - Albert Einstein
Oh! and Dane, I agree that you did not have to be stoned to appreciate Hendrix or for that matter any of the other artists that the Beatles are being compared to as musicians in this thread.
BTW who is doing the "my dad vs. your dad" thing? Did I miss some subtlety here?
BTW who is doing the "my dad vs. your dad" thing? Did I miss some subtlety here?
“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” - Albert Einstein
"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother" - Albert Einstein
"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother" - Albert Einstein
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studiotwosession
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>>"The teenagers who were lapping it up are in most cases the ones who now are calling it "otherworldly." "...a little bit personal there Glenn, but I can take it.<<
Sorry Dane, but I didn't see it as a personal observation to single out tens of millions of people, including myself. That and no ill will was intended.
And I didn't mean to imply that one had to be stoned to enjoy set padding soloists, just that many were.
I respect Bob Welch as well. He was one of the first live shows I ever saw, and had some good pop tunes. To me he was certainly not as dorky as ELO.
I don't put these guys in the same category as players. Clearly their styles were different (though the fabs showed they could do the Brit Blues things as well as any by virtue of Yer Blues alone, though it clocks only a few minutes long.)
Most of what we're discussing was a live phenomenon. The Beatles were competitive above all else. Had they not hung up the live thing (which they were throughly bored of save Paul) they'd have been ripping it up late 60s style, live, with the best of 'em.
All this reminds me of one of my favorite headlines in the Onion:
"Jam band starts 20-year long song."
Sorry Dane, but I didn't see it as a personal observation to single out tens of millions of people, including myself. That and no ill will was intended.
And I didn't mean to imply that one had to be stoned to enjoy set padding soloists, just that many were.
I respect Bob Welch as well. He was one of the first live shows I ever saw, and had some good pop tunes. To me he was certainly not as dorky as ELO.
I don't put these guys in the same category as players. Clearly their styles were different (though the fabs showed they could do the Brit Blues things as well as any by virtue of Yer Blues alone, though it clocks only a few minutes long.)
Most of what we're discussing was a live phenomenon. The Beatles were competitive above all else. Had they not hung up the live thing (which they were throughly bored of save Paul) they'd have been ripping it up late 60s style, live, with the best of 'em.
All this reminds me of one of my favorite headlines in the Onion:
"Jam band starts 20-year long song."
This is off the record
Hendrix along with Noel Redding and Mitch Mitchell ushered in a sound that was captivating and dynamic. I believe that the Experience intentionally produced a sound that had "holes" in it. Holes through which Jimi weaved a tapestry of sound. He punctuated those moments of comparative silence with blues based guitar riffs, that demanded your attention and he touched your heart with powerful melodies that showcased his soulful singing style.
"The Wind Cries Mary" is a masterpiece often copied but one that could never to be equalled.
Even though the genres are quite different that song stands on par with many of the songs that the Beatles wrote and recorded. IMHO
I am reasonably sure that none of the Beatles could play like Jimi could though.
"The Wind Cries Mary" is a masterpiece often copied but one that could never to be equalled.
Even though the genres are quite different that song stands on par with many of the songs that the Beatles wrote and recorded. IMHO
I am reasonably sure that none of the Beatles could play like Jimi could though.
“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” - Albert Einstein
"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother" - Albert Einstein
"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother" - Albert Einstein