Who were/are you main influences on bass?

jeff_ulmer · Post by **jeff_ulmer** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 7:08 pm

Partridge, Wyman, either way you're answering to a guy named Kieth.

As for inspiration, that would include Geddy Lee, Chris Squire, Dave Myles (Max Webster), Lee Dorman (Captain Beyond), James Dewar (Robin Trower)...

philco · Post by **philco** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 7:32 pm

Waylon Jennings was once a bassist, so you know he wouldn't put up with a ****** bass player in his band. When I got hold of a copy of his Dreaming My Dreams album in late '75, the funky country bass sounds that Duke Goff laid down on that album really got my attention. It also got the attention of the music collecting black guy that lived next door. Very unusual for a country album. Waylon obviously wanted some of his old rock 'n' roll attitude to show in the album, and Duke Goff's bass lines were a big part of the sound.

Soon afterwards I went looking for a P-bass with flatwounds.

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 7:41 pm

I never knew that Bill used a pick, this place is exploding all my preconcieved notions about certain bass players. It's funny how when you think a certain thing for many years it almost becomes certainty in your mind, humbling, this place is opening my mind.
At least I was right about flatpicking, that's what I thought it was, thanks Dave.

Wayland Jennings, didn't he play for some old obscure fifties guy? Bud Hollsworth or something like that?

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 7:50 pm

John Paul Jones ... who became famous for playing a jazz bass with his fingers for Led Zeplin ... had a good career as a studio musician ... and he was well known for having a great clean flat pick sound for studio tracks ...

ricnvolved · Post by **ricnvolved** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 7:52 pm

One more note about "Jumpin' Jack Flash": that song is really a Bill Wyman composition. I'm dead serious. Wyman was the first bandmember to show up at the studio one particular day and was messing around on the piano with his idea. After awhile, Brian shows up, followed by Keith & Mick and they listen to what Wyman is playing. Supposedly, Keith is very intrigued by Wyman's idea and explicitly tells him not to forget what he's playing. A little later the basic theme is fleshed out and "Jumpin' Jack Flash" is born.

Now, why wasn't Wyman given the writing credits? Well, that's a very good question that absolutely no one to this day has a ready answer for. Keith & Mick certainly don't go around trumpeting the fact, but when asked in private Keith quietly admits that the basic idea for the song was totally Wyman's. The original recorded version is my all-time favorite Stones song and it's an outrage that Wyman didn't get the credit & recognition he rightfully deserves. Even so, it's impossible to imagine that Wyman (or anyone else) could've contributed better basslines than what Keith played on the original.

Jerry Juden-- I know exactly what you mean about being baffled by Wyman's playing. I've subconsciously noticed how a lot of what he plays is peculiarly off-beat in the approach. By no means am I saying that it's bad. Actually, it fits and works extremely well with what the rest of the band is doing. It's just so different from any other player's style that I've heard.

As for Wyman having to think about going from G to D, I wouldn't have thought that to be the case considering how long he's been playing. Maybe in the early years I could certainly understand his lack of sophistication. But he's been playing for a long time and you'd think he would've learned the fretboard and gained a more thorough knowledge of his instrument by now. Oh well, he's quite a bit more successful than I'll ever be so I can't argue about it.

squirebass · Post by **squirebass** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 2:21 am

OK, I'm gonna finally weigh in here, with my influences, since I'm sure just any day now the phone is gonna ring and its gonna be Rolling Stone Magazine wanting to know!
First would definitely be McCartney, since the Beatles started it all for me on Sullivan in '64. Then, it would be Jack Bruce, John Entwistle, John Paul Jones, Chris Squire(anyone surprised!), Felix Pappalardi, Tim Bogert, Gary Thain, and Martin Turner. Later on I got into Stanley Clarke and Jaco Pastorious in the early 80s...
These are the influences I think of when I play my new Limited Edition C64 that Garry referred to!
But Garry, this LE would have to have the Right-handed headstock, of course(or would that be left-handed, wait a minute....)

I was really into that Jack Bruce/Pappalardi sound for awhile when I was playing in the '70s, and I used to think that Squire had just gone too far with that Rotosound, roundwound thing!
That is until I got an old EB0 that had been converted into an EB-3. My roommate was a bass player too, but he had a Mapleglo Rick.... Guess which one won out?!?

philco · Post by **philco** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 4:28 am

Yes, Bob, Waylon Jennings was Buddy Holly's bass player, and on that fateful night he gave up his seat on the charter plane to the Big Bopper and thus a future outlaw country legend would go on to greatness and a current rock 'n' roll star would die a short while later.

Kind of gives weight to that old proverb: It is better to give than to receive.

I suppose few people realize what a sassy rebel Buddy Holly really was (must have been the nerdy glasses). He once invited Little Richard (black, gay, rock 'n' roll........the local preachers must have gotten a lot of sermon inspiration out of that visit) out to Lubbock to get the local white folks all riled up. Bad publicity was better than no publicity, and the Rolling Stones would later use similar tactics to propel themselves to superstardom. Madonna was not against similar tactics as well. I think a lot of Buddy wore off on Waylon. And a lot of Waylon wore off on country music.

Buddy got a lot of static from the local whitebread religious puritans for his use of syncopated black rhythms in his music. It was radical for HIS day, though worthy of little comment now. When I played that Waylon Jennings album rather loudly and the black guy next door is soon wanting to know who it is so he can get his own copy, you KNOW that Waylon is a different kind of country musician. He identified the album by singing the bass line of the first track.

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 5:47 am

When I was a kid, I would say about 1965 when the British invasion stuff was in full swing (which changed my life) one of my friends brothers had gone away (?) and had a "Buddy Holly Story" LP that had been issued shortly after his death. I brought it home and loved it, you know the only thing I remember about it being "old fashioned" to me was the bass which of course was an upright. McCartneys bass playing and Ringos drumming sounded very modern to me compared to the old style rhythm section, which very gradually I came to love also. I still have a copy of that LP that I had to order in the late 60's and still play it once in a while.
I listen to the old rock n roll upright guys also as influences, they did a lot of neat things which sounded like mistakes to my ears when I was young.

gpatt5762 · Post by **gpatt5762** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 4:48 pm

Ever notice the bass part to JJF is one way in the studio and mirrors the guitars onstage?

Legend has it Bill had to take Stephen to the Doctor the night the song gelled, so Keef took matters into his own hands…

Now to the topic:

(Total Redundancy, here)

Lee
Entwistle
Jamerson
McCartney
Wyman
Kaye
Osborn
Squire
Huxley (Don't laugh- I was a big DC5 fan in 2nd grade!!)
Samwell-Smith
Wilson
The dude in Gerry and the Pacemakers
Jonesey
Glover
The dude in 10cc
Rutherford
The dude in Styx
Brain Block time- No, Bruce is not on the list, even though I was a major Cream fan for a spell- none of his little bit seems to have stuck with me.

Peace- Over and Out, (10-4 good buddy- got your ears on, copy?)
Garry

dminer · Post by **dminer** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 5:46 pm

I don't know if anyone has mentioned Willie Dixon here, but I would think that we all have to give him a nod. Afterall, it was his writing, playing and basslines that probably most influenced the English electric blues scene.
A few others that influenced me besides the usual, McCartney, Wyman/Richards, Chandler, Bruce, Squire, MacVie, Waters, Kaye, Jamerson ect. are:
Jack Cassidy...Hot Tuna!!
Barry Oakely...I got a chance to see the early Allman Brothers a few times and he was phenominal!
Larry Graham...Maybe the inventer of the "Funk Bass" his playing with Sly was fantastic!

ricnvolved · Post by **ricnvolved** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:19 pm

Keith Richards has said that he takes over the basslines on the final version of a studio recording *only* when he feels Wyman doesn't get it concerning the particular song. I don't know if Wyman had to take his son to the doctor that day, but Keith's bassplaying in JJF is indispensable to the original version. And, to repeat, Keith's bassplaying in "Live with Me" from the "Let It Bleed" album is pretty amazing stuff. As much as I respect Wyman's ability, I have to believe that Keith knows what he's doing when he feels his own ideas for bass on any given song are better than Wyman's.

David Miner-- I believe it's "Berry Oakley".

I was a huge fan of the *original* Allman Brothers Band back in the day. Duane was killed just a few days before they were scheduled to perform at the old Winston-Salem Colisseum here in North Carolina. The concert was cancelled, of course, but was rescheduled for January 28th, 1972. I got to see them and they really kicked major league ***! One had only to look at Berry's eyes and see that he was pretty high on something, but he didn't miss a note on anything they played. Though Duane's absence was a sad loss & terrible disappointment, it still ranks as one of the best concerts I ever attended.

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:11 pm

I love Keith richards, I love his guitar playing, I think he has the best rock n roll soul of anyone I've ever heard, along with Chuck Berry, and I think his bass playing was very good, nice clear sound and it rocked.
Berry Oakly was great, all those guys listened to a lot of jazz, that's where they got the ideas for those long extended jams, Berry was very jazzy with the lines he played, excellent bassist.
I saw them just ten years ago, and they were still great.

squirebass · Post by **squirebass** » Sun Jul 20, 2003 3:26 am

Berry Oakley was a VERY underrated bassist, and I'm glad someone mentioned him and Willie Dixon, who really had a big role in putting together the "baseline" (no pun intended) for bass players of the future when he did all those old R&B tracks...

dminer · Post by **dminer** » Sun Jul 20, 2003 4:23 am

Jeffery, You are correct sir.. I first saw the Allman Brothers in 1970 or 71 at a college in Troy Ala....they were certainly Jacked Up on "something" and their whole set was super fast, it seemed twice the speed of the recordings and the entire set was probably less than an hour in length. The next summer I saw them play for several hours at Piedmont park in Atlanta where they used to play for free on Sunday afternoons, often jamming with the Greatful Dead when they were in town.
His sister had to build a fence around his gravesite in Macon to keep sickies from desicrating/chipping the headstone and leaving trash ect. She keeps a vigil there and I would imagine that she has possesion of his bass or basses. Someone said earlier that he played a Precision, but I seem to recall a sunburst Jazz with a rosewood board and tortoise guard.
Didn't Richards also play the bass on Tumbling Dice? I'm a big fan of Bill Wyman and was kind of dissapointed when I found out years ago that he didn't play on some of my favorite Stones tracks. Kinda like when I found out Paul played the lead on Taxman. Oh well, I supose that bubbles are made to be burst and I believe that George did play the bass on Old Brown Shoe (not an easy feat)
and I doubt if Wyman has too many regrets and certainly did play on 98% of the Stones songs.

philco · Post by **philco** » Sun Jul 20, 2003 5:56 am

This really deserves a new thread, but all this talk of classic bassists leads to the problem of getting hold of their old recordings (many probably never reissued on CD) and properly playing it back. Few people get good bass from their old LP's. I've been buying stereo gear since the 70's, and the following does the best job for me on vinyl LP bass reproduction at a decent (not cheap) price:

1. Grado cartridge. Nothing beatss a Grado in their lower priced models ($300 and less). Mount it properly in a decent tonearm (Audioquest, Rega, etc.)

2. Belt drive turntable without servo feedback. The servo feedback type (Technics) tends to cause "hunting" of the proper speed. A hefty motor and belt drive is the audiophile standard for pitch stability. VPI makes a variable speed control you can hook any belt drive turntable to. Try to get a heavy platter with record clamp as well; it damps resonances and cleans up the bass a lot. My VPI turntable uses thick machined acrylic for a platter.

3. A tubed phono amp. Tubes in early amp stages preserve natural timbres. You can buy separate units now that you can add to a line stage preamp. An old tubed preamp can also be used just for the phono section; use the outputs in the recording loop to bypass the line stage section. Better line stages exist in modern preamps. Some modern solid state phono amps are OK.

4. Modern solid state power amplifier. I have listened to quite a few tubed power amps, and they tend to lose control in the deep bass, no matter how well they sound otherwise. If you could afford something like one of the big Conrad-Johnson Premier series tube power amps, that might get the job done, but they are muy expensivo. Their solid state MF series does a killer job in the bass department, and they are the best solid state I ever heard that Joe Six-Pack can afford. For some unexplained reason, they always languished in the shadows of their tubed brethren and are available at good prices on the used market. They outperform the MV series tube amps in the bass and never need tube changes, and are commonly available on eBay. An old B&K or Sonographe power amp can't be beat if your budget is tight.

5. Modern remote controlled preamp, because I like to vegetate in front of the speakers. If you are on a tight budget, an old B&K Pro-10MC is the value standard, it has a phono stage but no remote operation. Sonographe is also good.

6. Your favorite set of speakers. Everybody's ears, homes, WAF (wife acceptance factor), budget, and sense of style are so different as to make a firm recommendation useless. I like Vandersteen.

7. Buy this even if you buy none of the above: Orbitrac 2 record cleaning system by Allsop ($40), Audioquest antistatic record cleaner brush ($15), and Discwasher SC-2 stylus cleaning system ($10). The best you can do without spending $500 on a motorized wet vacuum cleaning system. The LAST Factory makes the best record and stylus preservative chemicals. Change that worn stylus and take care of your records at all costs!!! www.needledoctor.com

The amps tend to be the most expensive part of the equation, and Conrad-Johnson has the best website that lists all their past production models, all of which they still service and intend on doing as long as possible. Invaluable for referring to when identifying that unit you saw on eBay. www.conradjohnson.com They also built the Sonographe budget line of gear.