1993Plus!!!

[redamber]

I had previously posted a quite positive comment about this new Ric model, but on further reflection I do now have a couple of concerns about it:

The first is the price, which in the UK equates to $4,466 at today's rate of exchange - more than enough to cover the cost of a top-end Gibson, Music Man or PRS guitar. The high-end market is very fragile right now, so it will be interesting to see how much of the initial enthusiasm for this new Ric model translates into firm orders/sales in the months ahead. For my part, I have already decided to wait for a 'pre-owned' 1993 Plus guitar to materialise in the future, at more sensible prices.

Secondly, I have no issue with the width of the neck, but I think that the triangular fret-markers just look wrong on this variant of the classic 'f-hole' Rose Morris models. I think 'dot' fret markers would have been closer to the design and concept of the original RM models - as demonstrated most recently in the limited edition 2012 330S Tobaccoglo guitars and the UK-only 2014 330F models. Perhaps Pete Townshend insisted on the wider fret markers - but I do wonder!

Ultimately, the market will determine whether the Ric 1993 Plus is a success or not - so I accept that these opinions are both prejudiced and largely irrelevant!

[jps]

On your comment about the appropriateness of the FWI on this guitar, perhaps think of them as part of the Plus concept?

[k43rover]

I had previously posted a quite positive comment about this new Ric model, but on further reflection I do now have a couple of concerns about it:

The first is the price, which in the UK equates to $4,466 at today's rate of exchange - more than enough to cover the cost of a top-end Gibson, Music Man or PRS guitar. The high-end market is very fragile right now, so it will be interesting to see how much of the initial enthusiasm for this new Ric model translates into firm orders/sales in the months ahead. For my part, I have already decided to wait for a 'pre-owned' 1993 Plus guitar to materialise in the future, at more sensible prices.

Secondly, I have no issue with the width of the neck, but I think that the triangular fret-markers just look wrong on this variant of the classic 'f-hole' Rose Morris models. I think 'dot' fret markers would have been closer to the design and concept of the original RM models - as demonstrated most recently in the limited edition 2012 330S Tobaccoglo guitars and the UK-only 2014 330F models. Perhaps Pete Townshend insisted on the wider fret markers - but I do wonder!

Ultimately, the market will determine whether the Ric 1993 Plus is a success or not - so I accept that these opinions are both prejudiced and largely irrelevant!

Hi Jim, you make some interesting points here.

Sadly, that big differential between US/UK new retail prices is par for the course. I can completely understand you wanting to wait for a used bargain to turn up as that's the only way you're going to narrow/bridge the gap to getting one of these to the UK at a landed cost somewhere close to US$ retail purchase price.

The point about whether this guitar looks "right" or "wrong" is a totally individual thing. For those of us who are familiar with the f-hole 12 string models that Townshend used in the early Who period (i.e. standard Rose Morris 1993 export models (with the dot inlays), and the very early 360S/12 (with the sharks tooth inlays)), this new 1993Plus model clearly presents some conceptual issues (not least the extra pick up and wider neck). In that context, I can appreciate why some people would say that it somehow "looks wrong". However, as the 1993Plus is actually a brand new model in its own right, and is not attempting to be a super accurate C series reissue of either the Rose Morris 1993 or Townshend's 360S/12, it clearly cannot "look wrong"....it just "is what it is" as a brand new model. I can see that the features it offers will be very interesting for those who like the general vibe of the Rose Morris f-hole export models and who are not bothered about getting super accurate reissues like the C series models. For many of those people the wider neck is going to be a clear advantage in terms of playability and the sharks tooth inlays are probably more visually appealing to most people who like the double bound Old Style bodies than the dot inlays. I'm not convinced about that third pick-up though. As has been noted in earlier posts, the demand for 340/370 models has proven historically to be much lower than the 330/360 models. With that in mind, and purely from a potential sales volume perspective, it seems odd to me that you would launch a brand new model with that three pick-up configuration. The fact that the classic Townshend '60's 12 strings were in two pick-up configuration makes it even more of a head-scratcher.

In terms of how this sells, I agree it will be very interesting to see how the initial enthusiasm translates into hard orders. Let's hope it's a barnstormer as that would then trickle through to healthy used sales volumes that will allow you to pick up a bargain!!

[MoseRorris]

When Rickenbacker announced the the 2 new models (this and the 4003s) I was torn between which one to get. (My dream models are the 1997/1998, the 1993 and 1999/4001c64) but budget has always been an issue. I was lucky enough to get one of the limited 330f guitars, it's obviously not quite a 1997 but i still love it. The hardware has been modded and i'm happy with the "close enough" look until i can afford a real one.
However, knowing that UK prices are always high on Ric's i chose to get the 4003s as i would literally have no wage for a few months.
Hopefully the sales will be good on this one so that by the time i can afford it, they will still be available to order

They look absolutely amazing and i can't wait to see some videos of 'em!

[k43rover]

The first is the price, which in the UK equates to $4,466 at today's rate of exchange - more than enough to cover the cost of a top-end Gibson, Music Man or PRS guitar.

Hey Jim, I just spotted something that may interest you. Looks like a dealer in the Netherlands is selling these brand new for just over the equivalent of £2k!!!! That is a real eye opener. If this is an authorised Rick dealer how can they be selling them for £800 less than a UK dealer? Looks like we are being really gouged here as the landed cost for exporting from US to the Netherlands should be pretty much identical to the UK (and it looks like their VAT is even higher than ours at 21%).

If this is a genuine dealer/offer at just over £2k + shipping from Holland to the UK that's a good price even compared to importing direct from the US yourself. Maybe you don't need to wait for a used one to show up....

http://www.bax-shop.nl/semi-akoestische ... che-gitaar

[electrofaro]

Bax... quick and decent service but every real musical instrument dealer hates them for killing pricing!

[k43rover]

Bax... quick and decent service but every real musical instrument dealer hates them for killing pricing!

There has to be a balance between dealers having a reasonable margin to continue/grow their businesses versus exploiting loyal customers of the Rickenbacker brand. A retail price of just over £2000 (in Euro equivalent) in the Netherlands versus over £2800 from UK authorised dealers suggests to me that the balance in the UK is way out of line. The fact that all the UK dealers are pricing within spitting distance of each other also raises obvious potential issues with regard to competition legislation....

As far as other dealers hating BAX for their pricing, as a customer I really couldn't care less. I cannot believe they are losing money on these guitars even at the £2k pricing level and clearly their business model must be working or they would be out of business. Shame on the other dealers I would say - especially in the UK, for their greed.

EDIT - I just checked the main UK websites and it looks like all the dealers here have the 1993Plus listed at exactly the same price (£2899 which equates to around Euro3,900 or US$ 4,460) - so much for competition. I applaud BAX for offering consumers a genuine choice of a competitive price within EU markets.

[electrofaro]

suggests to me that the balance in the UK is way out of line.

Short answer: it's a USD-EUR vs USD-GBP issue. My remark was meant for fellow EUR dealerships. If you rather buy somewhere where they don't check the guitar when it comes in, just ship it without checking or setting up... oh wait, they want that so they can offer "service" afterwards and people think they're great... stupid me!

[k43rover]

Short answer: it's a USD-EUR vs USD-GBP issue.

No it isn't. Recent changes in FX rates don't come close to explaining the difference in retail pricing between UK and continental EU.

Even if you assume GBP and Euro pricing was set late last year at an equivalent US$ pricing per unit and at the then prevailing exchange rates for US$/Euro and US$/GBP, and then factor in the Pound appreciating from around 1 GBP = 1.26 Euro late last year to current rates around 1.35 Euro, the appreciation of the GBP versus the Euro over the past couple of months would account for less than 8%. However, the UK advertised retail price is over 40% higher than the BAX retail.

The other relevant factors which could explain the difference are a) how much the factory charge the UK distributor versus the continental distributors (i.e. is there better factory pricing to the continental distributors?), b) how much margin the UK distributor takes versus the European distributors, c) how much margin the UK dealers take versus the European dealers, d) differential shipping costs to various EU markets from the US, e) local market Sales tax/VAT percentages. As the UK has one of the lowest VAT rates in the EU (at 20%) the last factor is actually potentially in favour of lower retail pricing in the UK so that can be discounted. I doubt that shipping/logistics costs come in to play (if anything I'd expect US to UK shipping costs to be amongst the cheapest). I also doubt that the factory would charge significantly less to continental distributors. If that's so, then it has to come down to the various distributor/dealer mark-ups being much higher in the UK.

[Miesque]

I love 3 pick ups (have a 340 and 370) but won't be buying this model here in the UK. I was lucky enough to get one of the ten
Pearl White specials UK a couple of years ago. That cost me £2,000-which I thought was fair. I just don't see this model as a £800 better version-
especially when it will be mass produced.

The Townshend link I find a bit of a red herring. Owning and playing guitars are completely subjective. Pete Townshend's idea of how his
fav Rickenbacker should be set up will be different to mine and most people.

[headbanger]

Hooray! At last!

[jdogric12]

As the UK has one of the lowest VAT rates in the EU (at 20%)

I WORK in tax, am well aware of this, and it still manages to blow my mind every time I read it.

[k43rover]

As the UK has one of the lowest VAT rates in the EU (at 20%)

I WORK in tax, am well aware of this, and it still manages to blow my mind every time I read it.

For anyone who has grown up with US sales tax levels, it will indeed be shocking...but most people over here in the UK/Europe know no better and don't even seriously question why their governments impose these levels of taxation. The way things are going in Europe (with the need for major deficit/debt reduction in most markets), these rates, if anything, will likely only be going up further too.....

The fact that the Netherlands dealer (BAX) is going to have to pay 21% of the advertised price in Sales Tax to the Dutch government makes the price they are offering for the 1993Plus even more incredible value...in net terms, it's actually pretty close to what US dealers are charging and in view of the extra shipping/customs etc costs of importing to the EU that makes it a truly great offer.

[collin]

We Americans dislike British taxes to such an extent that we waged a Revolutionary War to stop paying them.


Seriously though, 20% taxes on import products is criminal..

[k43rover]

We Americans dislike British taxes to such an extent that we waged a Revolutionary War to stop paying them.


Seriously though, 20% taxes on import products is criminal..

The 20% is the domestic sales tax element in the UK (applied in full to almost all goods and services). It's likely that the UK distributors will have to pay even more tax (imposed in the form of import customs duties for goods produced outside the EU) - IIRC that can add another 4% or so to the 20% Sales Tax (just keeps getting better eh? )