Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

By 1966, The Searchers had had two line-up changes, more than most merseybeat acts.

I wonder whether this contributed to hastening their disappearance from the charts?

Any thoughts?

Gary

I don't think so. After Tony Jackson left they came up with "When You Walk In The Room" (probably their finest single), and had another massive hit with "Goodbye My Love". By the time Chris Curtis left in 1966 The Searchers star was already in its descendancy. It was perhaps their still being seen as a 'Merseybeat' group that contributed to their decline. If they could have shaken off that tag and been seen as a group that set trends [Say, if they had recorded "Mr Tambourine Man" before The Byrds, and given it the same 12-string jingle-jangle] they might have stayed 'big' in the charts.

I think it did. By losing Tony, they lost their best "Rock" voice (compare Chris on 'Ain't That Just Like Me)- so that limited their repetoire more and more to mid-tempo pop. When they lost Chris, they lost their musical director as it were, and while they were sliding with him, they weren't all over the place looking for a niche to fill when he was there. Concededly., I think their management and small (U.S) label did more to kill them here, and one of their problems on this side of the pond was that they didn't look "Liverpool" or British enough.

Gary: A most interesting question that has resulted in much speculation and discussion for Searchers' fans for nearly the past four decades. I consider that the loss of two key players from the Searchers was central to them falling off in the charts and contributed to their demise in general. While they continued to have talented musicians such as Frank Allen join, the Searchers never really recovered.

Jackson was very popular as a singer and performer and with his loss the group lost its rough edge which was an important element of Scouser Rock Music. Curtis was completely focused on the music, perhaps even too much so, which kept the motivation high and the dreams of hits alive.

To take your point a step further Gary, it seems to me that the greatest problem for the Searchers was the personality difficulties experienced by its members. While all groups have this difficulty to a greater or less extent, problems of personality and relatedness took a trememdous toll on The Searchers resulting in intractible differences that appear to have been irreconcilable. This theme would appear again in 1985 with the departure of Mike Pender. Suffice it to say that these differences were multi-factorial and would take a volume or two to explain in detail.

John's comment about not looking British enough for the United States is an interesting view as well. While I did not see them perform in the 1960s, my perception was that they looked quite British from my vantage point which was based on the record labels, television apprearances and fan magazine photos available at the time. I have added a few examples of The Searchers' dress code in the early 1960s.

The first shows a classic professional look right down to the shoes.



The second provides a comparison on stage with another well known British group.



The third shows them smartly dressed again in the typical British looking attire.



They may have performed at other times looking quite different but I consider that they did have the British Invasion look, at least in the beginning.

In that case, what did "looking British" mean in 1964 ? Was it just the dress code or did you have to have a name on your bass drum and comb your hair forward to qualify ?

Mark: Good question to be sure. All of the above but you had to be witty, on the rough side and have a cool accent as well. Last but not least you also had to be from Britain.

I have to concur with Tim, quite simply the public's fascination with Merseybeat was over by early 65, with exception of The Beatles, virtually all the other bands who rose to fame on the back of the liverpool sound had come to the end of their major chart success.

Whilst some still debate that losing TJ was a factor, I personally doubt it, ask any one except "Avids" to name three Searchers numbers and I am willing to bet that 99.9% would list 2/3 numbers that were down to Pender vocals

Discussing the look of the Searchers over the years, it is interesting that the group "proper" continued to maintain the rather formal dress code while Mike Pender and Tony Jackson got away from this idea. I consider that the "professional" look was important for the Searchers from the beginning and continues to the present day. It is a part of their image.

What I meant (way back when) was simply this: They didn't have haircuts that looked different from those of many singers here (nor a uniform haircut- although the cover of the KAPP LP, "The Searchers-Mike, John, Chris and Frank came close-except for Frank-who had a Beatle cut). Their suits didn't have velvet collars, no collars, Doctors shirts(DC5), and , again, looked like what American bands wore. More significantly, and to tie in with a discussion last week, they were virtually anonymous. No individual "types", like, John, Paul, Ringo, or George, not even known individuals, like Dave Clark, Gerry Marsden and Freddy Garrity. To paraphrase Caesar, "They came, they saw, they played, were NEVER individually introduced, and except for Chris (whose name was seldom mentioned by the host of the show- or Frank later)never spoke. They labored in obscurity, on a small (US) label, and except for one appearance on Ed Sullivan, one HULLABALOO, and several SHINDIGS (post Love Potion #9), they appeared on hard to find TV shows.They were this amorphous band, and when Merseybeat folded, they,unfortunately, went down with the (what appeared to be over here) hundreds of bands of lesser talent, but equal anonymity that surrounded them. A pity.

Getting dropped by a major record label,Pye,could not have helped them very much and is hard to explain given the parade of hits that they had accumulated up to that point.Record label politics or what? Perhaps their departure from Pye separated them the top quality producers e.t.c that had played a hand in their success up to that point.Also not sure if their management post Tito Burns was that helpful,not sure who took over afterwards.

Very nice points Jjr. Quote:"They came, they saw, they played, were NEVER individually introduced, and except for Chris (whose name was seldom mentioned by the host of the show- or Frank later) never spoke."
I consider that your statement above is spot on and, at least in part, addresses the issue of a "leaderless" group. You are quite right, there was no standout. While Chris did some announcing and may have lead the group off stage in terms of the selection of material, the lack of a standout may have rendered them forgettable. With the exception of Tony Jackson early on, there were no rough edges or publicized antics that made them "just noticeably different" from other groups at the time.

Their trademark was their fine music but the absence of an emerging personality did not allow them to stand out like the Beatles or Stones, for example.

Pop History will regretfully show that The Searchers were a band who rose to fame on the euphoria of Merseybeat and once the publics fascination with the "Liverpool" sound had waned , so too had the national popularity of all the groups from that expolsion, with the one notable exception.

The bands last three singles on Pye failed commercially and indeed the previous three singles had seen lower and lower chart placings.

The last two albums on Pye were nowhere near the success of the three before, so PYE clearly felt that the Searchers days as a successful recording act were over, much as it pains me to say it, they were probably right.

The Searchers manager Tito Burns I reckon only thought they were a act who would enjoy two to three years popularity and probably made as much capital out of them as he could in that period.

Whilst I agree with the sentiments already expressed, it is not a fair comparision to state they had no known individuals like Garrity , Marsden , Clark. Those three were the focal point of their respective groups.


Another point Peter, MP did not really abandon the "Suit "look, at most gigs I saw they were in Dress Suits. The future of MP's Searchers is doubtful, but depends I suppose on whether the other three have found other work or not if and WHEN MP decides to reform.

The Sound of the Sixties has literally become that and regretfully I feel that the time will be sooner rather than later when we will be discussing most acts from that era in the past tense.

Roy,

I agree that Gerry Marsden, and Dave Clark (to a much lesser degree here in the US) were the focal point of their respective groups (Here, Mike on the keyboards and Denny on the sax were well known in the DC5). BUT nobody who didn't read liner notes had ANY idea who any of the Searchers were. And KAPP did nothing to promote them. Dave Clark was on Sullivan at least 11 times. The Searchers, once. Somebody over here compared rooting for the Yankees to rooting for U.S Steel, because of their professional approach to baseball. Rooting for the Searchers was like that, except everyone knows who the Yankees are, and were. The lack of publicity, persona, and image didn't kill 'em, but it didn't help. I don't know how many people I've run into who know their music, but have absolutely no idea who they are. (One guy got their name mixed up with "Searchin'" by the Coasters, and thought the band was black). I agree that Sixties music probably has a limited shelf life. When Oldies stations here dropped '50s and Doo Wop for demographics, people went nuts. I don't think that'll happen for '60s music.

John: It is disconcerting that so many people know of the songs "Needles and Pins", "When You Walk In The Room", and "Love Potion No. 9" but often have not idea who sang these songs. Also, when you say "The Searchers" many folks I talk to say "What did they sing?" These same people do not have the same degree of difficulty with groups such as The Hollies, Billy J. Kramer and the Dakotas and the like.

The Searcher songs were so unique and stood out, at least to my way of thinking. Their 45s were readily available in Canada and yet a limited number of my friends had any of them. The music was clearly British but I guess I'll have to admit that while melodic and harmonic it did not sweep the general public of its feet. Perhaps the goody goody image associated with Sweets For My Sweet, Sugar and Spice and Needles and Pins did not have the "in your face" dynamic that most adolescents were looking for in those days.

Roy, thanks for the comment on Mike Pender's suits as they relate to MPS performances. I agree that MPS is on a slippery slope and their future would seem to be in considerable doubt. The last MPS Fan magazine in December 2002 had the secretary acknowledging that it was hard to keep subscriptions up. The fan club used to post on this forum but we have heard nothing in the longest while. While I don't have a crystal ball, it would seem to me that Mike is moving away from the hassle and expense of his own group. His "band" must be considering their options and probably for very good reason. It does look to me as if "It's Over."

Like the tag on the end Peter