Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

Lot's of folks contributed to my previous "Band Rant" thread. Figured I'd shoot a little update.

We played the wedding gig this past weekend, thumbing our noses at the hurricane about 200 miles offshore. Lucked out with the weather, really. Sunday morning was was worse than Saturday night...which was in turn far better than Saturday morning/early afternoon.

Was a great gig, the crowd was into it, we played well. All the new PA equipment performed great. Second gig for our sound guy, he's getting a handle on things.

Aside from a few mistakes here and there by all 4 of us, the only other blemish was a few feedback screams. As a group we're suspecting the singrs wireless mic-it's not that good a system, and I'm wondering if the battery in the mic is causing the issue.

And second gig in a row that I've been very please with the tone of my Laredo going through the 2x10 Carvin cab. First gig with the Laredo I was disappointed with the low end...and the next gig I was going through 2 15's in addition to the 2x10. Maybe the strings (still the original stocks strings) are just mellowing to where I like the sound, but I detect that the E string is getting a little "brittle" sounding...so I have to make the new strings choice soon. Pretty sure I'll stay with rounds for the time being, but not sure whose rounds I'll get.

to eliminate feedback go to an in ear monitor system ... this eliminates stage floor monitors and it keeps the stage volume down ... and yes a 2x10 cab is not enough ... I use a 2x10 and 1x18 or 4x10 or 2x15 setup ... and then I mike them into a big PA with an sm57 ... the PA has 6000 watts ... 3000 each side ... with cerwyn vega folded horns ... it kicks out plenty of low end ... my bass amp is for stage sound only ... the audience hears the PA ... I am gigging a lot with my 4004L these days ... it is a fun bass to play ... it is better rewired vol, vol, tone ... as per strings get a set with a .105 E string ... this gives the bass a more substantial sound ...

As Jeff said, use your amp to get your sound and for hearing your bass on-stage, let the PA do the work. This kind of thinking will lower stage volume which will give your soundman more control of the mix. But everyone on stage needs to comply or it won't work.

I don't have experience playing in many clubs, but it seems to me, the less you have going through one set of speakers , the better! If you have vocals, keyboards, guitars, and bass, all going through the PA, you must be losing some definition. In our small venue, we tried sending the instruments through the PA(Mackie 1604,and Mackie amp) but it sounds better with just using the individual amps, with the vocals and keyboard through the PA. It doesn't work well for recording, but the live sound is way better!

Hi Guys

Jeff is right, since we started to use the ear monitors.....no feedback in the last 20 gigs.

Our set up time was cut in half as well.

http://www.shure.com/psm/psm200/default.asp

I was going to use an SM-57 to mic the cab - not that pleased with the DI sound. But alas, the drummer was a mic clip short of getting his **** set up, so I donated my clip and used the friggin DI again...

That won't happen again. Jeff, when miking do you use multiple mics into to multiple channels of the PA? With the 2x10 seems I could get away with one mic, but if I were to use another cab in addition would seem you either have to make a choice on what gets to the PA or use multiple mics.

Stage volume...you know, we're really not that bad, most of the time, but I would appreciate us learning how to play softer. Problem is that "softer" is generally interpreted as "slower" by the musical hacks I share the stage with. I've almost given up trying to correct that misinterpretation. But again, we get more dynamics in this band than most others I've been in, so all is not lost.

And a funny thing...I never use earplugs (I know I should), but I seldom really think that I need a monitor. Has to be a very poor set up for me not to have a good grip on the sound we're doing. But we have the guitarist complaining about too much lead singer in the monitor mix, and the drummer needing to have his kick drum coming through...confused about all that disagreement on what makes a good monitor mix, as I seldom see the need to worry too much about it.

Oh well, it was a learning experience with the PA, and I suspect each time we get to use it we'll learn more and more.

My rule of thumb is the bass amp (stage volume), should be set to be equal of the stage drum set volume.

In my case, 450W and 8 10" speakers does the trick.

in the old days you we only ran vocals into the pa and we had big amps and turned up loud ... the modern way to do band sound is to have small amps and run everything into the pa ... but not all pa systems are created equal ... you need lots of power in the amps and speakers that can handle the power ... the pa has to have overhead ... in other words more power than it needs ... you need high horns, mid horns, low mids and subs ... you need at least 2 power amps ... one for subs and one for highs ... pro systems will use more ... you need some good 18" subs ... you need to be able to reproduce 20hz to 30hz lows for the dancers ...

my bands PA can get LOUD and still be clean ... we mike EVERYTHING ... every single amp and every single drum ... it all goes into the PA and it all goes into the in ear monitor system ... and like Ronn said each player has to have the discipline to control his volume ... then if something is too quiet then turn it up on the mains ...

Ed ... the in ears also double as ear plugs ... and yes one mike on a 10" speaker will do it ... my cabs have no horns ... I run 10's full range ... also by eliminating 3 or 4 on stage monitors you automatically reduce the stage volume without turning down ... with the in ear monitor system that my band uses we each have 5 volume controls ... so if somebody wants to be louder he can turn up his in ear monitors and not his amp ... the way it should work is you set a reasonable stage volume and then you plug in the in ears and set them how you like it and the sound man controls the mains ... if this is done right then every thing is balanced and nobody gets their ears blown out and there is no feedback ... and you can leave all of those ****** stage monitors at home ...

"My rule of thumb is the bass amp (stage volume), should be set to be equal of the stage drum set volume. "

I agree 100%


Most sound men are tone deaf failed musicians, haha!

"Most sound men are tone deaf failed musicians"

Hey what do you mean "Most" (It's all)

There are good ones out there, we had a very good one for about 5 years but he eventually left for greener pastures(which quickly didn't pan out for him), the guy we replaced him with has been with us about 3 years now and we're very happy with him. He knows his stuff, has a good ear and good gear, and knows the music.

Ed- As far the wireless mic goes if its a cheapy then it can cause a lot of problems. Of course any mic can cause a problem if the monitors are in the wrong position. I used to have a lot of problems with monitor feedback but found most issues could be corrected by using the proper mics and proper monitor placement. I've found that the Shure Beta58 and the Audix OM-5s work for me the best. They have a tighter pattern and produce more gain before feedback. The one drawback is you have to be on top of them. These mics allow your monitors to sit at 10 or 2 o'clock so the sound hits your ears better. With a regular 58 the correct monitor placement should be directly behind the mic. The sound would them hit you directly in the face and last time I looked my ears were on the side of my head. Another thing that singers like to do is hold the ball of the mic in their hand. That will also cause feedback. Jeff is right in the fact that monitors contribute to stage volume and that is necessary to control to elimiate feedback. As for monitor mixes, you didn't say how many sends you are using for mixes but most boards are very limited in this aspect. The send you want to use for monitors would be pre-fade which means that the main mix faders do not effect the volumes for the monitor mix. I've searched for boards that allow more than two and there are very few. I use a Mackie 1604 which has two pre and two post fade auxes. One post fade was used for effects, the other post fade was given to the drummer because, well I'm the bass player and that's what bass players do to drummers. The reason that worked for him was that we don't use a sound man so the faders weren't changing. Also keep in mind (and I'd like to know how Jeff's setup is) that in-ears can't re-mix sound that is already mixed meaning if you take one aux feed to power the IEM system and send that to multiple recievers, that mix is the only one everyone gets. To get a custom mix for everyone, each indiviual needs his/her own system and some type of send beit a separate mixer, their own aux buss or a subgroup out and that means $$$$$. I have most of the stuff that Jeff has but my thing is I get paid to setup and tear down. Playing is just fun for me. In attempting to be more efficient in the setup and tear down I've eliminated the subs for most gigs. I stopped using my mackie board and rack of effects. I now just have a Carvin rack mixer and 1204 power amp (4x 200watts) 1x15 Yamahas, and three monitors. All monitor chains run through a Behringer Feedback destroyer which really helps the monitor feedback as well especially with a roaming wireless mic. Do not put one on your mains though, they tend to suck the EQ. Bottom line here is people still drink, people still dance and bar owners are happy. Of course I'm also not playing rooms that hold more than a couple hundred people either and so I do not require the ear splitting volumes that Rath's PA can put out although I'd love to be able use a PA like Jeff's. For more info on live sound check out Mackie's forum. I learned alot from the guys over there about monitors, eqs, compressor and the whole nine yards.
And yes change your bass strings. The stocks originals are probably dead. Good Luck

Mike, you might be on to something with the moniters being pre-fade. I know our board has that option, but seeing as I don't know how it was set up, it probably means no one knows. I'll have to look into that, now that I understand what the heck that feature is for!

The board has 2 power amps, and we're using that for 2 separate monitor trains, 2 speakers in each train. We'll just have to tweak to find the best way to set it up. Maybe the drummer and singer need to be on one train, and the guitarist and I can be on the other...

FYI, we have nowhere near what Jeff is using; a crown power amp (900 W a side at 4 ohms), a crossover (BBE), a couple of Samson 4 channel compressor/gates, and a pair of EV 15" and 18" subs. The board is a Yamaha emx500 with 16 regular inputs-technically they say "20" channels with the 2 stereo inputs. We've been using 10-12 of the board inputs for a typical gig.

mike ... each person in my band has 5 volume controls for his own personal in ear mix ... we send 4 aux mixes into the in ear system ... one for bass, one for each guitar and one for drums ... the vocals are mixed into each and then then there is a 5th dial that is the signal sent to the mains ...