325 headstock shape?

[Gary_Cost]

Thanks Mark for the info on the paint, and thank you for taking your time to answer questions on this forum. While I have got you talking about 325's, I was wondering if you could fill me in with some info on the headstocks. Many people talk about the headstock on the '58 model that Lennon had vs the re-issue vintage 325v59. What is the difference in the size and why would they have changed it? Some say that Lennon damaged his so they had to re-shape it for him, thus the reason he was given the 1996 Floyd Rose. But the time frame that he had the Floyd Rose he would have already had his 325v63 model!
Any help on this mystery would be greatly appreciated.

[Mark]

You are confusing to different things here.

1- Floyd Rose is another guitar guy (also from the Seattle area )that made a fortune on a Vibrato unit that was installed as a stock item first on Kramer guitars and then on countless others until he struck a deal with Fender in the 1990's.
2-Rose-Morris is an importer in England that brought in Rickenbackers in the 1960's.

The headstock differences are due to the following.
1- there was NO CNC tooling in the 1950's and it was not until the 1990's that it was in use at the Rickenbacker factory.I am not privy to when it was initiated but I do belive this to be true.
2- the tooling was a plexiglass template that was first penciled around and rough cut out on a band saw.This was 'trued up on a pin router to final shape .The template the was used on the pinrouter was Baltic birch 3/4" plywood.This after a period of time would wear just from shoving it against the pin in the table of the router.
The next variable is the wood shop employees themselves.They have to use a bladder sander to smooth out the edges of the headstock and remove any machine marks that are noticable.Each guy that does this varies how much is sanded.There is no way not to have this variance.So as employees come and go you get a different look at the joint where the headstock tappers into the back of the neck.This is a lot of non CNC shaping.
3- Just like Detroit and any automobile ...things change .The shape of the headstock changes at Fender all the time .You don't really notice it until you line up guitars made over the years.Gibson has the same problem.Look at the late 1960's CF Martin guitars that have the rounded headstock.This is from the plywood jig wearing out .
This is nothing new.But now you may ask..."don't they notice this happening ?"
NO
Do you notice how sometimes you are driving home after work and you realize that suddenly you can't remember going past streets that you had to go past to get home? Well this happens to everyone and it's not a big deal .
To a manufacturer ,the headstock shape isn't critical in form from year to year.It just needs to be made and sold.
The discrepancies are found by the fans of the product and they are the ones that force this issue.
As to John Lennon's headstock...I'll bet he didn't give a damn about what shape it was in .Only that it was attached and it worked as a tool.Too bad he isn't here to ask about this and why he changed this guitar.Or why did he even like the model at all.Seems to me that after he got his Casino that the 325 took the back seat ride for the most part.

[admin]

You are right Mark. Lennon moved away from the 325 and adopted the Casino almost full time. It appears to have been his instrument of preference after the 325 days. I believe that he was won over by the sound and the larger fretboard surface as he began to be more interested in lead riffs as time went on. His focus shifted from being exclusively a rhythm guitarist to a sometimes lead guitarist as group members became more independent. At this time they wrote material and prepared for recording by themselves. Sad but true as far as I can see.

[Christopher_Bourke]

Also note that by 1966 John Lennon was getting tired of being a Beatle. From around this time until his death he mocked the hard day's night, mop top Beatle image. The 325 was a real symbol of that era. I think he was also trying to distance himself from all that in a way.

...But then again, he did pull out one 325 for the Double Fantasy sessions and is on record as saying that it was his favourite guitar of all he owned...

[admin]

Christopher: I too have heard that John used the Model 325 on Double Fantasy sessions, however, I have to this day been unable to find reliable documentation that this was so. Have you come across any photos of John in the studio or any other documentation to support his use of the 1958 Model 325 on Double Fantasy. I am hoping that this claim is true but it may only be wishful thinking.

[leftybass]

To add to Peter's first post: If you look back on The Beatles timeline in the studio I think they were just following a natural progression wanting to create different sounds.

Keep in mind that John used Rickenbackers almost exclusively for eight years or so, and as they grew as artists so did their need for different ways to achieve their goals. The 325 was there if he needed it---Think about how many different guitars George used after the Gretsches !!! I think they were just always searching for the 'new' sound.....

[Christopher_Bourke]

Peter: No, unfortunately, I have no photographic evidence of John with a 325 at the Hit Factory in 1980. I read somewhere that Rick Nielson of Cheap Trick was at a session or two (for "I'm Losing You" if memory serves). I think he mentions John using his 325 there, but I'm not positive. If anyone knows how to contact Rick Nielson, maybe he can enlighten us.
In Fred Seamans book (Johns assistant from 1978-1980) he mentions opening a closet in the Dakota to find "Johns famous black and white Rickenbacker" in there amongst other guitars. John reportedly tells Fred that this was his favourite one. Of course this is around 1979/1980 so that must have been the '64 325 or the 325/12 as the '58 would have been back to maple by then.

[admin]

Christopher: Thanks. You are right, we must get some information from Mr. Nielson.