Knock-Offs, Rip-Offs, and Just Plain UGLY!

[kiramdear]

Say, look at this story from Yahoo Finance's personal finance section for June 1:

http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/ar ... leadership

'Nuff said.

[johnallg]

But, lacking good adult role models and advice, common sense is hard to summon when shiny chrome, gold and Franklins beckon.

That's because you can't find common sense on the shelf at the local WalMart.

Also, as to the disadvantaged youth and no hope of a higher education, here we have The Kalamazoo Promise - if you go to the Kal Public Schools from K-12, you are guaranteed 100% tuition for 4 years (depending on performance) at any Michigan public college or university. My son missed it by a month - they announced it just after he graduated.

https://www.kalamazoopromise.com/?mode.page.view=76

But I digress and do agree with your sentiment of what heros are chosen and for what principles that choice is made.

[johnallg]

Maybe they are graduating in greater numbers, due perhaps to the population boom, but no way can anyone convince me that Americans are more literate than they used to be. No way. Whatever they are studying in there, job training, perhaps, has not taught the majority of them to even master their native tongue.

I disagree strongly. When I look at what I knew in school, even HS, and what my 3 kids had to learn and accomplish to graduate, I realized they are a lot more challenged and smarter than what we were. They just lack learning good old horse/common sense. Too many doctorates in the Administration buildings....

[johnallg]

Principles of basic written English, once part of a second grade education, are usually (not often, but usually) ignored and/or missing from simple statements, making a challenging task (that of deciphering a writer's mood without visual or verbal cues) even tougher, and leading to miscommunication and the inevitable misunderstandings when the output of our ductless glands are dripped into the brew.

They don't teach phonetics anymore. My middle daughter had a very hard time spelling correctly because when she was in the 1-4 grades the emphasis was on getting ideas down and not on spelling or grammar and punctuation.

[cjj]

These days, it seems, spelling is done by the word processor program. I believe that's how we end up with so many homophone type mistakes. Words like to, two, too, or their, there, they're. If it sounds right and the computer doesn't complain, it must be correct, right?

[jakeox]

My take on all this -- and you can call me biased because I'm a relative youngin' around here -- is that people were less smart than you think they were in the past. The internet has opened up access to larger numbers of people than ever before, many of whom cannot effectively write or communicate. If the same levels of access had been available one or two generations ago, you'd have seen the same stuff. It's just that the barriers to getting your words in front of people are much lower than they used to be. I think we're comparing the top 1% of previous generations to the top 50% of the younger generations.

Of course, teaching and learning priorities have shifted, too. Maybe kids today don't spell as well as they used to, or aren't as good at grammar -- I'm not sure -- but they sure are quicker to pick up technology and see innovative ways of using it.

And believe me, if you look into how even the best colleges were run as recently as 50-80 years ago, you'd be shocked at how little learning was actually occurring.

[cjj]

But I'd have to say that even the colleges and universities aren't turning out the quality they used to. Admittedly, I'm looking at a very small segment, Electrical Engineering. The company I've worked for, for nearly 30 years, has been well known for hiring the best and the brightest engineers since its beginnings. I've been involved in interviewing, hiring, and mentoring a lot of these new kids out of college and I have to say there has been a noticeable general decline in the actual knowledge that these grads have. It seems that they are getting a much more specialized education, with knowledge in a very small subset of the field rather than having a general knowledge of the entire field.

Now, these kids are not stupid and can learn the necessary skills rapidly, but it's amazing the lack of knowledge in basic electrical engineering principles most of these kids have. And it's that wide based knowledge that really allows one to excel in the field. If you know one thing well, that's great, but if you have a good understanding of the rest of the field, you can understand much better how to solve problems in your own area of expertise, finding innovative ways to do new things rather than just "turning the crank" on what you know.

I really don't know why this trend is happening. It's possible that the "best" just don't want to work for the company I work for, so all we're seeing are the lesser quality grads, but I seriously doubt that...

[jingle_jangle]

My take on all this -- and you can call me biased because I'm a relative youngin' around here -- is that people were less smart than you think they were in the past. The internet has opened up access to larger numbers of people than ever before, many of whom cannot effectively write or communicate. If the same levels of access had been available one or two generations ago, you'd have seen the same stuff. It's just that the barriers to getting your words in front of people are much lower than they used to be. I think we're comparing the top 1% of previous generations to the top 50% of the younger generations.

Of course, teaching and learning priorities have shifted, too. Maybe kids today don't spell as well as they used to, or aren't as good at grammar -- I'm not sure -- but they sure are quicker to pick up technology and see innovative ways of using it.

And believe me, if you look into how even the best colleges were run as recently as 50-80 years ago, you'd be shocked at how little learning was actually occurring.

Ref: my comment on the notes and letters I received from customers when I was in the mail order biz in the '70s and '80s--a generation ago.

Not only has the quantity of verbiage gone up with the birth of the 'Net, but the quality has gone down. No surprise, considering we no longer need paper, pen, envelopes, and stamps to "post".

[jingle_jangle]

If it sounds right and the computer doesn't complain, it must be correct, right?

Write!

[jakeox]

It seems that they are getting a much more specialized education, with knowledge in a very small subset of the field rather than having a general knowledge of the entire field.

That may well be the case -- the focus of college education has certainly changed over the years, too. I can't speak to your field, but something I've seen in several studies (don't have citations handy -- apologies for the terrible form) is that top firms in many fields are now hiring from a much broader range of colleges than they used to. Where it used to be only Ivy League caliber schools sending grads on to work at these firms, many other schools have caught up to the level of the traditional top schools in terms of cranking out qualified grads. Now that I think about it, this may have referred to law or med school admissions rather than employment, but the point is the same.

I'm no great fan of the way college teaching is structured, but I think there are more very good colleges than there used to be, and therefore more students attending very good colleges, good colleges, "ok" colleges, etc.

Having briefly taught undergrads at a top-level school I will certainly agree that the quality of their writing could rarely be called good or even competent, but I have no frame of reference for what undergrad writing used to look like.

[kiramdear]

Just to try to touch base for a minute, I came into this discussion with the question of taste - who has it, where do we get it, and so forth.

Education comes into full light as we discover the crossroads of literacy and task preparedness. One direction leads to development of critical thinking skills which are our organ of perceptions of taste. The other way hinders imagination and critical skills, as I gather.

I would submit that mastery of language is hand-in-hand with sophisticated critical thinking. (BTW I never claim to understand English deeply, and my taste is frequently called into question )

How am I doin'?

[jingle_jangle]

"I would submit that mastery of language is hand-in-hand with sophisticated critical thinking."

There's a nugget there, but I'd put it as:

"I would submit that mastery of language is hand-in-hand with the perception and communication of sophisticated critical thinking."

There are some people without elegant or wide-ranging language skills, who can self-criticize and self-realize non-verbally, especially where craft is concerned. Most often heard, usually with an awestruck tone: "He's/she's a natural."

[jimk]

These days, it seems, spelling is done by the word processor program. I believe that's how we end up with so many homophone type mistakes. Words like to, two, too, or their, there, they're. If it sounds right and the computer doesn't complain, it must be correct, right?

Add to the above observation that the American accent is changing and has been evolving over the years to the point that many folks pronounce where, we're, and were the same way, not to mention there, their, and they're. In fact in some locales, there's little difference between "bus" and "boss."

JimK

[whojamfan]

John, congrats on the good news concerning your daughters
My duaghter is in college right now, and I've really have my fingers crossed as I need a retirement fund

[wayang]

In fact in some locales, there's little difference between "bus" and "boss."

...at it's most obvious in the phrase: "My boss just threw me under a bus!"

...a scenario with which I have more familiarity than I would care to describe...