Strings fret out??

6120anniversary · Post by **6120anniversary** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 6:31 pm

Ok...I used my 330 at band level volumes tonight and when I'd play a solo on the 3 unwound strings I had a problem. If I would try to bend a whole step the the volume of the note would actually diminish. Could these be because the higain pickups, or the strings are actually fretting out when I bend towards the middle of the board?

Thanks,
Bill

admin · Post by **admin** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 1:26 pm

6120 Anniversary: You have made an interesting observation and I certainly don't claim to have the definitive answer. I hope others will add their expertise.

I consider that there are two main factors at play here. To begin, in my experience whenever a string is bent the result is a slight reduction in volume. This is for all strings but you are likely to notice it most on the plain strings as they are more likely to be bent and more likely to be displaced further from center. Moreover, you are using high gain pickups that have more output but less clarity of tone. In the end this equates to a reduction in treble.

To sum up, I would argue that the combination of high gains and the bending would lead to the observations that you have made. Raising the volume may be, in and of itself, insufficient to compensate and I would try adding a compression/sustain pedal. No promises, however, I suspect that you will be pleased with the outcome as I have had good results in a similar situation.

Please give this a try and let me know how you make out. In the meantime I hope that others will chime in.

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 4:11 pm

All of these things may be factors but the single most important reason is the large rise in tension caused by bending the string.

6120anniversary · Post by **6120anniversary** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 5:14 pm

It certainly is odd, I've never had this problem with any other guitar...to correct myself it isn't all the treble strings its just the high E string...

Peter,

Thanks for the nice reply. The higain theory was of my bass player, who claimed he had this problem on his rick bass that had ceramic higains...but when he switched over to toasters it didn't have a reduction in sound when he would do bends. I'm not about to switch over to toasters...but maybe this could be the reason why we dont see many guys doing bendy leads on 330s.

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 4:52 am

6120 Anniversary: Your more recent observation certainly complicates things. Do you notice the difficulty only when the treble pickup is selected?

maizeandblue · Post by **maizeandblue** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 6:56 am

If the guitar was fretting out on the high E, you'd notice a very deliberate and rapid mute to the note. It wouldn't be a gradual trailing off of volume. There are a number of possibilities here, but I tend to side with John's assessment without actually hearing it.

One thing I would suggest would be to perform the full step bend on your High E at different parts of fretboard (5th, 7th, 9th, etc.) and compare the volume diminishment. As you move down the fretboard the increased tension will definitely effect the sustain and volume of the note, but if it's fretting out anywhere on the board, the note will drop dead on you, not trail off.

I tried a few of my guitars after reading your post and each was a little different in terms of volume and sustain on full step bends, but none of them acted the way you described, so this is a real interesting problem...

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 10:51 am

Warren and Bill: I just spent some time with my Rickenbacker 350 and made the following obvious observations. In conducting a string-bending exercise, the higher one goes up the fretboard the more strings are displaced from their position over the pickups. The high E string gets the greatest displacement from its "natural" center position compared to the other five strings on a six string instrument.

This being said and being mindful of comments by John Hall and Warren with regard to the large rise in tension, it also seems apparent that the greater the string displacement associated with the rise in tension takes the string away from the polepiece on the high gain that is central to amplifying the note. Other strings are displaced less and hence are affected less with regard to volume and tone. The position of the magnets on the toaster pickups are closer together and therefore the volume and tonality doesn't drop off, or if it does slightly it is not audible to the player.

In the end, the answer to Bill's question would seem to require and analysis of the interaction between both the displacement of the string and the placement of the magnets within the pickup.

The solution would therefore seem to be replacing the high gains with toasters or changing style to that of a "strummer" alone. If bending strings is important it would be better to go with the toasters or the humbuckers. The magnetic construction of the high gains would seem to pose a somewhat greater problem for "string benders."

I expect that this explanation has some holes in it. I do recall having a similar experience to Bill when my Model 350 had high gains. After replacing the high gains with toasters and after my observations today, I no longer notice any significant drop off during bending. I confess, however, that my 350 is less punchy with the toasters compared to the high gains, so there is a price to be paid for every switch.

6120anniversary · Post by **6120anniversary** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 11:31 am

Ok...this got me to to take my 330 out...now at practice I was using a fender solid state so the amp here is different. I plugged the 330 straight into my Super Reverb and put the volume to about 5. The volume of the note does die slightly on all frets starting at the 5th on up...and of course this is the high E string. Sure enough as the string was pushed away from the higain polepiece the tone did deminsh. I think John Hall was onto something but the Rickenbacker seems to lose more volume than my Gretschs...so that leads me to believe that it actually is the higain...

Maybe toasters would be better...but like Peter said I would miss the punch of the higains...I'm not sure what I'm going to do next.

maizeandblue · Post by **maizeandblue** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 12:43 pm

Fascinating... My guitars have either toasters or humbuckers so I won't be of any help if it has to do with the distance of the vibrating string from the high gain pole piece. After reading Peter's analysis, I would bet he's correct. It will be interesting to read more comments from those with high gains. Thanks Peter...

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 12:46 pm

Bill: Are your Gretsch pickups single coil?

6120anniversary · Post by **6120anniversary** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 2:58 pm

Peter: No, they both have filtertrons

Here's something I just though of...what if my pickups need adjustment...is there somewhere on the board that has information on setting up higains...I see a lot of toaster help but not much higain???

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Apr 14, 2003 3:22 pm

I wouldn't expect that you would hear much loss at all with the Filtertrons. I don't think that there is much adjustment that you can do with the high gains that will make a difference with the problem you describe. I think that you would have to move the pickups laterally on the body which would look peculiar and move other strings out of the range of the polepieces. Have you considered a Rickenbacker humbucking pickup?

billikenn · Post by **billikenn** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 2:54 am

you may try adjusting the height, if the PU is too high or too low, the problem may be worse because the magnetic field is spherical about each pole.

so you might be bending into a crevace that lacks sufficient postion to disrupt the magnetic field and induce a charge.

try it and see how it goes, it cant hurt...

also I would count the turns of teh screw so that I could return the PU to origonal if need be..

JP