What's The "Buzz" About The Feiten System?

admin · Post by **admin** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 3:53 am

Don: I have read abut the Buzz Feiten System and would like to know what your impressions are of this tuning.

toneman · Post by **toneman** » Tue Apr 29, 2003 7:28 am

Peter; There's alot of credibility in Buzz's system. The big pain is having to use a tuner with a format setup for that or figure out how to use your current tuner in the way they want you to tune the instrument.
Or you can buy the "Earvana Nut" and replace your old nut with that and set it up in the manor that's explained in their directions(pretty simple really!) and just use a regular tuner afterwards. The Earvana is compensated so that your open chords are as in tune as your bar chords.
I guess you can tell I like the Earvana.. I have it on a few of my guitars.
It takes about a 1/2 hour to convert your guitar with this.

admin · Post by **admin** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:25 am

Don: Thanks for these points. Without knowing it, you have perhaps answered my second question. Is switching to this system a hassle. Do you consider it worth the bother if one needs to purchase an extra tuner, buy an Earvana nut, carry a case with instructions and go back to school for a refresher?

Regardless of the credibility I am wondering whether you or anyone who listens to you can hear the difference?

grsnovi · Post by **grsnovi** » Thu May 01, 2003 12:56 pm

The whole notion of intonation has to be contextual. I would think that if you routinely played all sorts of jazzy things in divergent keys, you might be able to hear a difference. The difference between "well tempered" and "just tempered" is going to impact two different performances differently.

EVEN with the Feiten system or Earvana nut, the guitar CAN NOT be "perfect" in all keys in all positions on the neck!

admin · Post by **admin** » Thu May 01, 2003 3:53 pm

I concur that it is a rather incredible claim Gary. As I understand the Feiten claims, however, one would achieve perfection in all keys and in all positions.

The result - play any note, any chord, anywhere on the neck and you'll be in tune.

Naturally this would assumed a perfectly fretted instrument and a perfect ear. It would leave me out of the running on both counts I am afraid. I am very interested in hearing what Don has to say about the difference he notices between the Feiten and the "fly by the seat of your pants system."

rkbsound · Post by **rkbsound** » Thu May 01, 2003 4:17 pm

I'll be watching this post very carefully...I am very intrigued by this concept and, while I don't know that I would retrofit one of my Rick's, I certainly would try something on my Epi Dot. I have this problem right now. Thanks, Don!

wwittman · Post by **wwittman** » Thu May 01, 2003 6:04 pm

Buzzy also has said that doing EITHER thing he recommends (that is, moving the nut OR using the suggested tuning) improves things. But doing BOTH is of course the best.
I have a Korg DT-7 tuner , which isn't terribly pricey and has the Buzzy Feiten tuning mode built in if you want it.

grsnovi · Post by **grsnovi** » Thu May 01, 2003 7:05 pm

If Feiten is claiming "...any note, any chord, any place..." he is full of balogna (to be nice). The only way to get perfection across all notes, chords in all positions, for all intervals in all keys is to have a dynamic computer that would be capable of adjusting the note by cents depending on the key you were in.

Simple fact of physics.

Perfect intonation is not physically possible for instruments with fixed notes (fretted instruments, pianos, etc...). Strings (like violins) or woodwinds where the player can change the note by mouthing or by unfretted finger positions can play "perfect" interval in any key without retuning.

The whole subject of intonation is quite fascinating. Anyone interested should read: TEMPERAMENT _ THE IDEA THAT SOLVED MUSIC'S GREATEST RIDDLE by Stuart Isacoff ISBN 0-375-40355-8 (c) 2001 and pieces in J.Cree Fischer's PIANO TUNING (A SIMPLE AND ACCURATE METHOD FOR AMATEURS) ISBN 0-486-23267-0 (c) 1907

Of course, I've been in business long enough to realize that the marketing department never lets facts get in the way of a good promotion...

admin · Post by **admin** » Fri May 02, 2003 12:46 am

Gary: Your points are certainly noted. It would seem that you have done your homework and are tuned in to the deatails. Perhaps Buzz did stick his neck out a bit too far on this one or, as you suggest, his marketers may have given us a scaled down version. After reading your comments this is, perhaps, something to fret about. Time for some more library research.

grsnovi · Post by **grsnovi** » Fri May 02, 2003 7:37 am

The so-called "ancient" Greeks were even aware of the "need" for a compromise system. As a result, there is a tempering called: Pythagorean

About the time that keyboards were "invented" things started going a little nuts.

Then, you had guys like Bach and Mozart who were doing all this interesting writing and players who were attempting to play the stuff who realized that certain notes were "clinkers" (they called them "wolf" notes since they seemed to howl out from the rest as being wrong).

So - music composed in the 1700's was generally performed with an entirely different "tempering" than music we play today.

The ideal of course would to be able to tune everything perfectly to everything else.

You would rarely "hear" a problem with a single instrument doing a performance in a single key. But when you get a lot of instruments - some of which are fixed interval instruments - you begin to run into issues.

I have no doubt that a solo performer playing a Feiten enhanced instrument that was temper tuned to Feiten's interval would comment how perfect things sounded (whether anyone else could hear it or not). I would even go as far as to say that the same instrument would play BETTER in an orchestral situation playing period music (in sequence) from the 1500's, 1700's and last week WITHOUT retuning.

The bottom line (for me) is that Feiten's system still doesn't yield "perfection" so why go there? The guitar (as I know it in the recorded canon that makes up my collection) never had it AND in an ensemble setting with 2 guitars, bass and drums you'll NEVER hear a problem.

My whole quest here was driven by my original inability to "tune" my 360/12v64 and subsequent purchase of a Peterson strobe tuner, 12 saddle bridge and numerous books on the subject.

mortivan · Post by **mortivan** » Fri May 02, 2003 8:55 am

I read somewhere that Herbie Hancock used to sometimes detune (or "tune", I guess) his keyboards to be tempered for a specific key.

Much easier with electronic switches and tone generating circuitry than vibrating strings and frets.

admin · Post by **admin** » Fri May 02, 2003 9:28 am

Gary: Intriguing. I am waiting for your 360/12V64 Primer 101. You must have picked up many good pointers on this journey please pass them on under a separate thread should you have the time.

wwittman · Post by **wwittman** » Fri May 02, 2003 10:08 am

Well it's as unfair to say "you'll never hear it" as it is for Buzzy to say "perfect anywhere".

Lots of people DO hear the problems with getting guitars to sound in tune across certain ranges, and even in 2 guitar bass guitar and drums ensembles.

To many people, Buzzy's system DOES make things sound bettter.
I can't dismiss that anymore than I dismiss anyone else's subjective feelings.

Anyone else have any Earvana experience?
Someone suggested that for people who play lots of parallel open-5ths it might make things WORSE.
Opinions?
And they hint at 12 string and bass guitar versions. Any one tried them?

grsnovi · Post by **grsnovi** » Fri May 02, 2003 4:12 pm

WW - my point is that in a ensemble situation with three fretted instruments in tune WITH EACH OTHER, you should never hear intonation problems between the different instruments. That isn't to say you wouldn't still (possibly) hear the inherent intonation IMPERFECTION in the instrument - depending on the keys/intervals/etc... being played.

I'm also not disputing that his system doesn't make the instrument sound "better" - it just is NEVER going to be perfect NO MATTER what he (or anyone) says unless there is a change in the laws of physics.

I'm not well versed in the dynamic range of the human ear - so given two notes at a given frequency, I have no idea how far apart (in cents) the ear can hear reliably/repeatedly nor do I know how much "closer" Feiten's system makes "problem" positions that they are on a properly set-up instrument.

I know there are individuals who can hear minute differences just as there are people who can discern the smallest color differences. I suspect that the majority of the population - even the majority of musicians do not have the audio acuity needed to "hear" the difference.

Just my uneducated opinion.

G

mortivan · Post by **mortivan** » Fri May 02, 2003 4:34 pm

Hey Gary,

I disagree with you (in one respect); your opinion _is_ an "educated" opinion.