Don,
Are you at all familiar with any of the three books in this series? If so, would you comment on them? Thanks!
G
Ultimate Tone series by Kevin O'Connor
Moderator: jingle_jangle
-
toneman
Hi Don,
Well, I tend to O.D. on books and such when I'm building up to something and I'm teetering on the brink of teaching myself to build an amp.
I picked up a pile of books yesterday including:
DC/AC Circuits Principals and Practice
Louis E Frenzel
© 1995
Beginners Guide to Tube Audio Design
Bruce Rozenblit
© 1997
Antique Radio Restoration Guide
David Johnson
© 1982/1992
(It's Easy to Use) Electronic Test Equipment
Klein/Gilmore
© 1962
World Tube Directory 2002
World Tube Directory 2003
The publisher of the UT series closes down for a month for inventory (they must have more books than I do...
and JKLutherie didn't have any. So, I'll just wait until they're back open.
I've also been busy visiting various web sites.
By then, perhaps I'll already have a project started.
Hope you are recovering nicely.
G
Well, I tend to O.D. on books and such when I'm building up to something and I'm teetering on the brink of teaching myself to build an amp.
I picked up a pile of books yesterday including:
DC/AC Circuits Principals and Practice
Louis E Frenzel
© 1995
Beginners Guide to Tube Audio Design
Bruce Rozenblit
© 1997
Antique Radio Restoration Guide
David Johnson
© 1982/1992
(It's Easy to Use) Electronic Test Equipment
Klein/Gilmore
© 1962
World Tube Directory 2002
World Tube Directory 2003
The publisher of the UT series closes down for a month for inventory (they must have more books than I do...
and JKLutherie didn't have any. So, I'll just wait until they're back open. I've also been busy visiting various web sites.
By then, perhaps I'll already have a project started.
Hope you are recovering nicely.
G
-
toneman
Today, I subscribed to the Tone Quest and well as the audioXpress publication and got some reprints from them too. I am also rapidly educating myself on the basics. My plan is to build something soon... My goal is to understand WHY certain tubes are/were used and WHY various capacitors/resistors are used, etc...
I suspect that at the moment the UT series is "over my head" anyway.
Glad to hear that you're mending. I had a long protracted recovery once that wasn't much fun.
At least you have us to keep you company without us actually BEING there...
My goal is to understand WHY certain tubes are/were used and WHY various capacitors/resistors are used, etc... I suspect that at the moment the UT series is "over my head" anyway.
Glad to hear that you're mending. I had a long protracted recovery once that wasn't much fun.
At least you have us to keep you company without us actually BEING there...
-
soundmasterg
- RRF Consultant
- Posts: 1921
- Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 1:06 pm
Gary, my audiophile preamp I designed was based on a Bruce Rozenblit design that I got out of Glass Audio in 1991. I later learned that the circuit topology was used in Japanese TV sets from the 60's. After taking care of a few "small" issues, like how it could blow up my solid state power amp (and possibly my speakers) that responded to DC offsets on startup and during power disruptions, I had a pretty good preamp. I had to design a timed relay controlled protection circuit and regulated power supply to go with it to prevent DC offsets. Electronic design is complicated and full of many issues not apparent at first. I spent a year, part time, in getting that preamp to where it competed against the better commercial designs. A B&K Pro-10MC can be bought used in mint condition and sounds almost identical, plus throws in a really nice MM/MC compatible phono preamp and a headphone circuit, for what I gave in parts for my Linestage Preamp alone.
The point is this: You will NOT save money by building your own equipment. Quite the opposite in most cases (cables are an exception because of Wire Bandit pricing policies). The cheapest route I have ever found is USED IN MINT CONDITION or where somebody basically gives you something because they don't want to mess with it, provided the repair is rather simple and the rest of the components are not aged/abused to needing replacement soon. Finding something you basically like and then modifying it to taste can be time and cost effective. Learning to fix your own equipment can be time and cost effective since your equipment will not be tied up in shops when you need it.
A decent DMM, a used oscilloscope, a decent soldering station, basic electronic hand tools, a CD player and test CD to be used as a signal generator, probes and cables, decent lighting and work station, basic tube tester (you do not need an expensive Hickok, as the amp circuit is the Ultimate Test), and if you REALLY want to test capacitors for dielectric absorption, leakage at operating voltage, and equivalent series resistance you must buy a used Sencore LC75 at the very least (I find bad electrolytics that are new, unused). Plus many little odds and ends you never thought you needed when you started, like reference books and four different types of solder. Parts inventories can eat you up financially.
If you want to do this as a hobby, then OK. HOBBIES COST MONEY. Just don't try to beat the factories and talented/skilled engineers/workers at their own job. You will probably lose money and time at the very least.
Case in point: Last year I bought a Conrad-Johnson MF-2250 from an authorized dealer in mint condition with a 90 day dealer warranty. New cost was $2295 retail. I paid $900 plus $24 S&H. It came in original factory packing with original owner's manual. You can't tell it from a new one. Not a scratch anywhere. I popped the top and looked at the parts. I would have given more than that for parts of the same quality, such as Cardas RCA jacks and binding posts. Ever price what a sculpted faceplate alone costs? I preferred to spend less and get right on with listening to music in a well proven design. I can also get my money back out of it any time I want to and try something else if I get the urge.
Don't get caught in the "build it yourself" trap, unless you go in knowing it will cost you more in the end.
The point is this: You will NOT save money by building your own equipment. Quite the opposite in most cases (cables are an exception because of Wire Bandit pricing policies). The cheapest route I have ever found is USED IN MINT CONDITION or where somebody basically gives you something because they don't want to mess with it, provided the repair is rather simple and the rest of the components are not aged/abused to needing replacement soon. Finding something you basically like and then modifying it to taste can be time and cost effective. Learning to fix your own equipment can be time and cost effective since your equipment will not be tied up in shops when you need it.
A decent DMM, a used oscilloscope, a decent soldering station, basic electronic hand tools, a CD player and test CD to be used as a signal generator, probes and cables, decent lighting and work station, basic tube tester (you do not need an expensive Hickok, as the amp circuit is the Ultimate Test), and if you REALLY want to test capacitors for dielectric absorption, leakage at operating voltage, and equivalent series resistance you must buy a used Sencore LC75 at the very least (I find bad electrolytics that are new, unused). Plus many little odds and ends you never thought you needed when you started, like reference books and four different types of solder. Parts inventories can eat you up financially.
If you want to do this as a hobby, then OK. HOBBIES COST MONEY. Just don't try to beat the factories and talented/skilled engineers/workers at their own job. You will probably lose money and time at the very least.
Case in point: Last year I bought a Conrad-Johnson MF-2250 from an authorized dealer in mint condition with a 90 day dealer warranty. New cost was $2295 retail. I paid $900 plus $24 S&H. It came in original factory packing with original owner's manual. You can't tell it from a new one. Not a scratch anywhere. I popped the top and looked at the parts. I would have given more than that for parts of the same quality, such as Cardas RCA jacks and binding posts. Ever price what a sculpted faceplate alone costs? I preferred to spend less and get right on with listening to music in a well proven design. I can also get my money back out of it any time I want to and try something else if I get the urge.
Don't get caught in the "build it yourself" trap, unless you go in knowing it will cost you more in the end.
Hi Philco -
I'm not trying to beat the cost thing.
I'm planning to educate myself.
Over the years I have always found that anything that I invest in my own education ends up paying off in spades somewhere down the road.
I have not lifted a soldering pencil yet and I've dropped:
$200 on books
$600 on home study course
$600 on an inexpensive new scope and wave function generator (I don't need a $20,000.00 Agilent or Tektronix scope to do digital cpu diagnostics)
And I've "discovered" the whole world of high-end audiophile crazies who will spend $40000 on a set of speakers
What I want to know is why a certain amp with essentially similar components can sound so different from another.
My "plan" as far as it goes looks something like this:
- build a Champ (from a kit) use the kit components
- build the same thing again from scratch with "good" components to understand the impact
- build up the food chain to determine what and how changes to the basic circuit impact the behavior
I've already got more invested in this than buying a tweed champ from Victoria or any of the boutique builders would have cost me.
Gary
I'm not trying to beat the cost thing.
I'm planning to educate myself.
Over the years I have always found that anything that I invest in my own education ends up paying off in spades somewhere down the road.
I have not lifted a soldering pencil yet and I've dropped:
$200 on books
$600 on home study course
$600 on an inexpensive new scope and wave function generator (I don't need a $20,000.00 Agilent or Tektronix scope to do digital cpu diagnostics)
And I've "discovered" the whole world of high-end audiophile crazies who will spend $40000 on a set of speakers
What I want to know is why a certain amp with essentially similar components can sound so different from another.
My "plan" as far as it goes looks something like this:
- build a Champ (from a kit) use the kit components
- build the same thing again from scratch with "good" components to understand the impact
- build up the food chain to determine what and how changes to the basic circuit impact the behavior
I've already got more invested in this than buying a tweed champ from Victoria or any of the boutique builders would have cost me.
Gary
Gary,
If it's an education you're after, it MIGHT be worth it. If you won't get upset when it doesn't pay you back big bucks, and you enjoy doing this like I enjoy flyfishing (In price per pound, it's cheaper to buy fish at the market, but you CAN'T buy wild bass at the fish market, at least not legally. And farm raised trout is like catfood compared to wild bass.), and get something you can't get commercially, then go for it. I'm dazzled by the variety of products that are already on the market, so it kind of kills my creative mood. I have more fun getting great deals on used gear than building my own these days.
Not many of us audiophiles spend $40,000 on our whole system, much less loudspeakers. Personally, I know a guy that has a set of $8000 Goldmund speakers that he bought for about $2000 used in good condition. My brother drove to NYC and picked them up for him when he went out to the east coast. They weighed over 200# each! He powers them with a custom made pair of bigass single ended Class A amps that use a radio transmitter output tube and run at about 950 volts. Stand back, WAY BACK! They were built by Dale Kronquist who is a local amp guru in the Denver area. This is the most extreme system I have personally listened to, and I like my Vandersteens and C-J amps just as well.
I'll tell you why those amps sound different when using identical components...........CIRCUIT TOPOLOGY. Nelson Pass stated long ago that circuit topology ruled, and as long as an engineer used fairly decent components, it didn't matter very much in changing the sound. Rearrange how those parts are hooked together.........BIG difference in the sound. I proved it myself. There is not much difference in sound in a $2 Alps carbon pot and a $65 TKD conductive plastic pot, except when the carbon pot gets old and noisy while the plastic pot keeps right on sounding good. The TKD stereo pot tracks within a small fraction of a dB between sections, and the cheap Alps pot will be off by 3 dB or more at various settings and will need to be corrected with a balance control. Balance it out and you can't hardly hear any difference. You are paying for precision matching and durability with the plastic pots, but the $2 carbon pots will do just as well if you don't mind changing them when noisy and balancing them out every time you change the volume. I prefer the no-fuss remote control volume changing my C-J preamp offers. I paid about what you have paid for your educational materials for it. It has been an education for me, as I can't beat it at a cheaper price.
If it's an education you're after, it MIGHT be worth it. If you won't get upset when it doesn't pay you back big bucks, and you enjoy doing this like I enjoy flyfishing (In price per pound, it's cheaper to buy fish at the market, but you CAN'T buy wild bass at the fish market, at least not legally. And farm raised trout is like catfood compared to wild bass.), and get something you can't get commercially, then go for it. I'm dazzled by the variety of products that are already on the market, so it kind of kills my creative mood. I have more fun getting great deals on used gear than building my own these days.
Not many of us audiophiles spend $40,000 on our whole system, much less loudspeakers. Personally, I know a guy that has a set of $8000 Goldmund speakers that he bought for about $2000 used in good condition. My brother drove to NYC and picked them up for him when he went out to the east coast. They weighed over 200# each! He powers them with a custom made pair of bigass single ended Class A amps that use a radio transmitter output tube and run at about 950 volts. Stand back, WAY BACK! They were built by Dale Kronquist who is a local amp guru in the Denver area. This is the most extreme system I have personally listened to, and I like my Vandersteens and C-J amps just as well.
I'll tell you why those amps sound different when using identical components...........CIRCUIT TOPOLOGY. Nelson Pass stated long ago that circuit topology ruled, and as long as an engineer used fairly decent components, it didn't matter very much in changing the sound. Rearrange how those parts are hooked together.........BIG difference in the sound. I proved it myself. There is not much difference in sound in a $2 Alps carbon pot and a $65 TKD conductive plastic pot, except when the carbon pot gets old and noisy while the plastic pot keeps right on sounding good. The TKD stereo pot tracks within a small fraction of a dB between sections, and the cheap Alps pot will be off by 3 dB or more at various settings and will need to be corrected with a balance control. Balance it out and you can't hardly hear any difference. You are paying for precision matching and durability with the plastic pots, but the $2 carbon pots will do just as well if you don't mind changing them when noisy and balancing them out every time you change the volume. I prefer the no-fuss remote control volume changing my C-J preamp offers. I paid about what you have paid for your educational materials for it. It has been an education for me, as I can't beat it at a cheaper price.
I'm sure that a set of "Grand Utopia Beryllium" speakers at $35k a pair coupled with a $40k pair of VTL Siegfried monoblocks would be lost on my sensibilities (I bought a STEREOPHILE magazine yesterday, who knew people spent like that on "record players"
I'm not looking for "paybacks" in anything other than enjoyment and knowledge of things that relate to something in which I'm interested.
I don't ever see me getting into tube audio at home. The only time I listen to pre-recorded music these days is in the car. I only recently got a DVD player and I don't have a "sound system" hooked up to the TV.
Once upon a time, I listened to a friend's slightly better stereo with Dolby Surround Sound. It was very cool. I "upgraded" and realize that there is a "sweet spot" and unless you're there, you don't hear anything sonically magic.
I never set that stereo up here.
It didn't go with the apartment layout or the furniture I got to fit the room.
I got an inexpensive Sony "bookshelf" set-up with a powered sub-woofer that I sometimes use to listen to Beethoven when I go to sleep...
Usually, I take my Beethoven live with 80 to 100 players on the stage in front of me
(I bought a STEREOPHILE magazine yesterday, who knew people spent like that on "record players" I'm not looking for "paybacks" in anything other than enjoyment and knowledge of things that relate to something in which I'm interested.
I don't ever see me getting into tube audio at home. The only time I listen to pre-recorded music these days is in the car. I only recently got a DVD player and I don't have a "sound system" hooked up to the TV.
Once upon a time, I listened to a friend's slightly better stereo with Dolby Surround Sound. It was very cool. I "upgraded" and realize that there is a "sweet spot" and unless you're there, you don't hear anything sonically magic.
I never set that stereo up here.
It didn't go with the apartment layout or the furniture I got to fit the room.
I got an inexpensive Sony "bookshelf" set-up with a powered sub-woofer that I sometimes use to listen to Beethoven when I go to sleep...
Usually, I take my Beethoven live with 80 to 100 players on the stage in front of me
It's not possible for me to see classical concerts, so I have to set something up at home.
A word on loudspeakers.........most people buy what impresses them the most on some particular CD or whatever. I bought my Vandersteens because they DIDN'T IMPRESS ME. Every CD I played seemed to sound different. Then I realized I was hearing the music more than the loudspeaker. It was the music that impressed me. The speakers got the hell out of the way. Bad CD's sucked and the great ones sounded like nirvana. The dealer had them hooked up to Counterpoint amps, which is a defunct brand that closed down due to no fault of their own. The bank screwed them for no reason. The designer, Michael Elliott, is still repairing and upgrading the old Counterpoints. If you can latch onto an SA1000/SA100 preamp/amp combo, then you have a great cost effective rig for powering the Vandersteen 2Ci or 2Ce. My brother had an SA100 amp hooked up to his Vandersteen 2Ci speakers. Great combo! I slightly preferred the ballsier sound of my B&K ST-202+ which has twice the watts, but I'm a bass freak. The C-J MF-2250 is better still.
Alta Vista Audio is the website to check out. It describes all the old Counterpoint models. High End Audio does NOT have to be expensive.
Arthur Salvatore is an ex-dealer that has a great website for wading through the audiophile BS. He tells you how the system really operates, and how subjective review magazines/reviewers and unscrupulous dealers and manufacturers have been fleecing gullible people. Learn to trust your ears.
He highly recommends Vandersteen and Counterpoint for cost conscious audiophiles.
You can get information off the web from places like Soundstage!, so my Stereophile subscription expired LONG ago, and I don't miss it. My local Vandersteen dealer doesn't care much for most audiophile review magazines either.
A word on loudspeakers.........most people buy what impresses them the most on some particular CD or whatever. I bought my Vandersteens because they DIDN'T IMPRESS ME. Every CD I played seemed to sound different. Then I realized I was hearing the music more than the loudspeaker. It was the music that impressed me. The speakers got the hell out of the way. Bad CD's sucked and the great ones sounded like nirvana. The dealer had them hooked up to Counterpoint amps, which is a defunct brand that closed down due to no fault of their own. The bank screwed them for no reason. The designer, Michael Elliott, is still repairing and upgrading the old Counterpoints. If you can latch onto an SA1000/SA100 preamp/amp combo, then you have a great cost effective rig for powering the Vandersteen 2Ci or 2Ce. My brother had an SA100 amp hooked up to his Vandersteen 2Ci speakers. Great combo! I slightly preferred the ballsier sound of my B&K ST-202+ which has twice the watts, but I'm a bass freak. The C-J MF-2250 is better still.
Alta Vista Audio is the website to check out. It describes all the old Counterpoint models. High End Audio does NOT have to be expensive.
Arthur Salvatore is an ex-dealer that has a great website for wading through the audiophile BS. He tells you how the system really operates, and how subjective review magazines/reviewers and unscrupulous dealers and manufacturers have been fleecing gullible people. Learn to trust your ears.
He highly recommends Vandersteen and Counterpoint for cost conscious audiophiles.
You can get information off the web from places like Soundstage!, so my Stereophile subscription expired LONG ago, and I don't miss it. My local Vandersteen dealer doesn't care much for most audiophile review magazines either.
Anybody who wants to check out what Arthur Salvatore has to say before plonking down a load of cash on (probably) over rated audiophile components can do so at http://high-endaudio.com/
The more you save, the more you can spend on Ricks and records. The better you buy, the more you can enjoy the sounds of Ricks on records.
The more you save, the more you can spend on Ricks and records. The better you buy, the more you can enjoy the sounds of Ricks on records.