Keys are for doors!

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:54 am

Bob, if the progression is Em-D-C, you can solo in either (most commonly) G major or E minor. Where does C# factor in?

ric480 · Post by **ric480** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:57 am

Yet another way to look at it.

D mixo = G ionian = C lydian and on and on and on ...

"Sweet Home Alabama" = D C G
D = D F# A
C = C E G
G = G B D

So... D E F# G A B C are the chords' tones in "SHA".

Pick a scale or mode ( see above) that covers those tones and LISTEN to the changes for phrasing. Just one theory novice's approach

Nice to see ya here Mr Feather ...

telebob · Post by **telebob** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:13 am

john biscuti, most people I've heard, will play from the minor pent scale when soloing over an Em D C chord progression. There is no "C" in the Em pent scale.

This leads me to believe that the minor pent scale is derived from the dorian form which would be E F# G A B C# D E.

If this is so, and we're talking about this Em D C chord progression being in the key of G, then here's what the two scales look like next to each other.
G Ionian = G A B C D E F# G
E Aeolian= E F# G A B C D E

They're exactly the same notes but the starting point, or root tone is different.

Nice to see Mr Ric 480!

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:59 am

Bob, I'm sure I don't have to tell you that the reason it's called a Pentatonic scale is because penta = five, five notes in the scale. Where it's derived from is irrelevant, because all you have/need are those 5 notes - E G A B D.

But regardless, Em-D-C is a chord progression in E minor, so why not play a C if the mood strikes you? You have a few options - over-simplify things and play pentatonic, or play in E natural minor, or play in G major. All will work perfectly - it all comes down to note choice then - when is a better time to play certain notes over others, etc.

telebob · Post by **telebob** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:45 am

In trying to stay with the topic of this thread I gave the examples above so it would still relate to where the "key" comes from. Where they're derived from is of extreme importance to me because then it all makes musical sense. I spent way too many years playing scales that were presented as "just play this scale over that progression. It will work." I want to know why it works and what it's origin is. By tracing it all the back to G I get the big picture of why G ionian, A dorian, B phrygian and so on, all work when playing over this progression. By seeing this, I am able to play notes in different combinations all over the neck and I think it makes my playing more interesting.

Using C is fine and in fact encouraged over such a progression. C# is not. If I didn't know where the scale came from, I wouldn't know to use C instead of C#. I realize my answer was pretty long and involved, but I was trying to stay within the spirit of the thread and bring about some clarity on the subject.

As I said earlier, I do not have an extensive knowledge of theory. And I'm not saying I'm even right about all of this. But it works for me and seems to contain a good amount of truth.

prog_rockin_metal_man · Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:23 am

I bet singers would hate my guts...I write in less common keys and I write alot of odd time stuff. I am in the process of writing a song that goes from Dm to C#maj and I find that it sounds really good...I don't really know much theory because I'm self tought...I just do what sounds good. Oh and I also like to use accidentals (notes not found in the key) I bet that would really mess with singers. I would think that singing in a different key would just be a matter of practice though.

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:47 am

Accidentals are not "notes not found in the key". An accidental is simply a sharp symbol (#), a flat symbol (b), a double sharp symbol (x), a double flat symbol (bb), or a natural symbol (can't make it with keyboard).

prog_rockin_metal_man · Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:55 am

oh my mistake john...I thought accidentals were refering to the notes themselves. hopefully I can use this place and expand my comprehension of music theory.

leesh · Post by **leesh** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:29 am

Jason - I got introduced to modes via my lesson of the week. I got into formal lessons a little while back to try and become more of a lead player rather than just rythym. You and Biscuit set the bar pretty high for the youngins....I'm trying to catch up

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:30 am

Hopefully we can be some some assistance, Alisha!

leesh · Post by **leesh** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:39 am

Definitely John! This is a great new thread!

telebob · Post by **telebob** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:10 am

Alisha, just wait until theory actually makes a better rhythm player, which will in turn help you enormously with your solos. LOL! Rhythm rules!

jdogric12 · Post by **jdogric12** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:37 pm

Boy, I spend 24 hours in the real world and look what happens here. This is getting much more complicated than I expected. My apologies to anyone who finds this as interminable as I do.

To maintain some sort of equilibrium, let me just say I think pentatonic scales are cool. They just plain work. C's AND C#'s also sound nice in Em. If you've really got some chops, you can put the C# over a C chord and get away with it! I prefer to leave THAT to the Cages and Stravinskys of the world.

Matt, it sounds like you've got some serious stuff going on. The chord progression you mentioned, Dm to DbMaj was very popular with Genesis. Check out Fountain of Salmacis and Hairless Heart for good examples of that one. But then I'll bet you knew that already.

And yes, Bob. Rhythm rules.

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:31 pm

"I would think that singing in a different key would just be a matter of practice though."

Most singers have a range where their voice is the most powerful and takes the least effort, this is where they should stay to avoid damage and sound their best. This is mostly a physiological thing although a person's range can be extended with practise, but singing out of your natural range is a good way to screw up your voice especially if you are singing in front of a loud rock band.

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:37 pm

J, I think you need to spend less time in the real world.

Luckily (Or unluckily?) for me, my real world IS music theory.