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My wife is reading a book about depressing songs (I Hate myself and I want to Die by Tom Reynolds) and it says something about Dorian Mode. I know this has something to do with minor scales over a related major chord, but I honestly would not know it if it bit me on the ***. Wikipedia mentions Light my Fire and Eleanor Rigby as good examples of Dorian mode. Here's my question: is Love will Tear us Apart by Joy Division in Dorian Mode? This is just a matter of curiosity more than anything else. Thanks

Hey Greg,
Tunes written in the Dorian mode sound sad cause it's based on a minor scale. Actually it's used alot for jazz (the 6th note of the scale is sharpened) Im, IIm, III, IV, Vm and VII chords.

Modes can be tough to get one's head around but i'll try to explain Dorian as simply as I can.

Think of C major: 0 flats, 0 sharps. D dorian is a scale that begins and ends on D in the key of C major - i.e., whereas D minor would usually have a B flat, D dorian has 0 flats, 0 sharps.

In "Eleanor Rigby", which is E dorian (E minor scale in the key of D), you can hear the modal tonality on the words "in" and "church", when Paul sings "Picks up the rice in the church where a wedding has been". It's a C# in the key of E minor.

"Love Will Tear Us Apart" sounds Major to me - Dorian is a minor scale with a raised 6th.

"Im, IIm, III, IV, Vm and VII chords."
OK, the chords in the song are Em, D, Bm and A (with a Dsus4 & Dmaj9 riff and the occasional Em7). So I'm guessing that is, based on the above. Does it depend on the riff over it?
I was curious because this song is haunting & sad even without the lyrics or the story behind it.

Based on the chords, I would put the song in the key of D with an odd ii starting chord. Which makes it not modal (Ionian is the "modal" name for a major scale)

So if one wrote a song in a Dorian Gray Mode, it would never grow old?

only if it were to see sheet music of itself

Very interesting thread!!!

Let's get the business out of the way first, then we can have a little fun. Dorian mode is basically a minor key with a raised 6th, for example, E Dorian is E F# G A B C# D E... G Dorian is G A Bb C D E F G, etc etc.

So in E Dorian your chords are Em, F#m, Bm, and G, A, and D (major). But remember many "examples" you find will deviate and confuse you if you think this strictly.

What makes music interesting is stepping outside of the boundaries just enough to perk up your ears, but not too much to where it loses you.

Eleanor Rigby demonstrates this well. The darned thing STARTS on a C major chord, for heaven's sake. Clearly not E Dorian, but plain old E minor (aka Aeolian). The part that perks up your ears is the verses' C#'s as Biscuti pointed out.

So it's not really in one mode or the other, but invokes elements of both for contrast, while maintaining an "E" tonality for continuity. The chorus is clearly E Aeolian, with its proud C major chord, and the verses use C# instead of C natural.

What all this boils down to is a matter of function and the use of mood. It's pretty standard to associate minor keys and chords with "sad" and major keys and chords with "happy." It sounds simple, but it stands.

Modes raise things up a notch by taking elements of other MOODS (notice I could have said KEYS) and mixing in a little salt and pepper, so to speak. At the end of the day, ahem, I mean, the song, we are directed to an E minor chord, regardless of how we got there. Sure, I could take I-75 from Tampa to Tallahassee, for a quick, efficient drive. I could also take US Hwy 19, and have a completely different journey, but end up in the same place.

Post Script: Light My Fire is a little weirder. The middle solo section is definitely in Dorian, but the verses bounce between F#m and Am. This two-chord combination does not conform to any one scale, since F#m has a C# in it, and Am has a C natural in it. It's an example of furthering this concept of shifting moods (quickly in this example) while maintaining a TONALITY, which gives our brains the direction and desire to keep listening to the chorus, which is... surprise surprise... a slight variation on a very simple IV-V-I turnaround... a reward for listening for sixteen bars without being sure of what key we're in.

TONIC = HOME

Post Post Script:

Legend for Modes:

I - Ionian (aka major)
ii - Dorian
iii - Phrygian
IV - Lydian
V - Mixolydian
vi - Aeolian (aka minor)
vii - Locrian

So in the key of C major (no sharps no flats) we have seven possible modes: C major, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, B Locrian. What determines the modes is the root, or tonic. Where do the melodies and harmones direct our expectations? If (using this key) we "land" on Dm and it feels like the songs could end right there, it's probably D Dorian.

Let's get nuts:

Take "Breathe" from Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon. The verses go E minor, A Major, repeat ad nauseum. This suggests E Dorian, which employs the key of D major while focusing our ears toward a home base of E(minor). The chorus kicks in and gives us a big fat C major chord, clearly betraying the verse and leading us to the more comfortable key of G major. Good old G major.

So... a key of D resolving to a key of G??? Keys resolve the same way chords do. Any major chord (or key, as we see now) is naturally and psychoacoustically drawn to the major chord (or key) a perfect fourth above, like D to G.

(A perfect fourth equals five half steps, if you want to count them out on your piano or fretboard, like D to G, or Bb to Eb, or F# to B, etc.)

I think you scared 'em off, J.

No way, keep it coming!

I find such discussions fascinating, albeit a bit difficult to follow due to a total lack of knowledge of music theory (as well as formal training) on my part. I liken it to seeing and understanding the proof of mathematical expressions.

You're right, Gary, it's a LOT to follow. This is definitely advanced stuff even for the college theory student. The main point I hoped to make was: don't analyze yourself into a corner. Even with all the fancy rules applied, music is rarely black and white. That's what makes it an art form. There are rules you can break if you know how.

I'm with Gary, fascinating but frustrating.
Sometimes I wish I hadn't quit piano lessons in the third grade!

Good discussion. It is interesting to analyze songs when looking for what makes them work, but I think that aside from the more traditional genres, most writers aren't paying particular attention to modes when composing, but rather hear what they are writing in their heads, which is why they don't adhere to the rules. Having a sound grasp of theory makes it easier to translate that mental image into a tangible form, but I believe that the best music is that which comes from the heart, not the theory books.

As a Black Sabbath fan, my favorite mode is Iommian.