Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

Hi there,

I already posted this question to the bass forum; here is the answer I received:

"This is normal Seth, on any Rick (with the capacitor removed)- with both pickups selected and turned up full, some weird electrical canceling happens and the low mids cut back. Simply back off the volume for the neck (bass pickup) a small ammount, then the fullness with return."

My question is, can anyone else corroborate this? Is the slight cancellation just something that cap-less owners have to live with?

Thanks much,
Seth

well i gave you that answer - i forgot to add that i have both a 4001 that i removed the cap from, and a 4003 that of course does not have a cap.

The 4001 has a toaster in the bass positon (does yours),,..both basses display this "problem"

Sounds like one more reason why you should not remove the cap from the circuit...
Seriously, I believe there simply is no way of dealing with the 'problem' you both mention. Two similarly constructed pickups wired in parallel and turned up full will produce a somewhat nasal tone with slightly less bass response than when working separately. Viz the Fender Jazz Bass.

Yes that is normal, and actually it's more pronounced with the cap in because the cap blocks all the low mids and bass from the treble pickup, all my Rics and also all my jazzes did the same thing, they lose the mids. It is not really a phase problem (I don't think anyway), with the Rics the bass pickup predominates with both pickups on full, depending on how high the treble pickup is, especially the 4001's with caps.
To prove this try taking off your pickguard sometime so your bass pickup is away from the strings, lay it on a bed, and play it with the selector switch in the middle and both volumes on full, then slowly back off the bass volume as you pluck a string, the treble pickup actually gets a lot louder in just a fraction of a turn depending on where your bass and treble pickups are set, that is where you get your mids.
With both volumes on full it is just a trebly click especially with the cap in. When I bought my first 4001 in 1977 the treble pickup was set equal with the bass pickup from the factory as was every other new 4001 I played, and with both pickups on full it was very bassy with a nice click sound to it (they came with flatwound strings)and it had the cap in it. Removing the cap actually alleviates this somewhat because it allows more mids from the treble pickup in the mix, that is why I have removed the caps from all my 4001's. They cut through the mix much better. A 4001 Ric bass was set up to be a very bassy bass from the factory, listen to Mac, or Maurice Gibb for example. They had a nice bassy tone with a treble click, but it doesn't cut through a mix very well unless you are extremely loud (I'm talking about a live situation here not the studio)If you get a nasal tone without much bass your treble pickup is probably very high or much more powerful than your bass pickup, or possibly it could be because of round wound strings. I usually set the pickups at approximately the same distance from the strings for the same volume from each. I usually back off the bass pickup somewhat although with the cap removed it's not such a necessity anymore. If you want more mids, remove the cap and back off the bass pickup somewhat, all your mid (presence) comes from the treble pickup.
Myths abound in this forum about this cap, all it does is block mids and bass from your treble pickup which results in a more trebly sounding bass because of LESS mid not MORE treble, it does not add treble, and especially does not add mid.
Sergio is correct any two pickup bass does the same thing with two identical pickups in it with both volumes on full with similar distances from the strings, but I have found them to be more not less bassy usually. It is not a problem it is normal.

Just in case, I do not want anyone to think that I think my way is the only correct way for these basses, it is just my preference that is all. I like a capped 4001 in a big amp like an SVT that can handle the lows these basses put out, I just think they sound wimpy in small amps with the cap in. I'm probably going to recap one of my 4001's for that trademark 60's and 70's Ric sound, it's a great sound for dirty rock and roll with round wounds, especially through a slightly overdriven SVT, Sucio rock.

Because the 4001/4003 model has two single coil pickups the bridge pickup will be wired out of phase with the neck pickup to act as noise cancellation. They are a perfect 180deg out of phase when the pickups are turned full on. This will create the,"humbucker", effect and cancel mostly 60Hz hum, which is the most prevalent because of noise causing electrical devices.

The only real drawback to the 180deg out of phase trick is about a 3dB drop in output, which is noticeable. The Fender Jazz does the exact same thing, in case you’re wondering.

No. The 4001/4003 pickups aren't wired that way at all, and humbucking coils are not out of phase with each other anyway. One has to be reverse wound/reverse polarity with respect to the other, not out of phase. And there is no 3db drop in output when both pickups are on.

But when you switch from neck only to both, there is an apparent loss of low end and/or volume simply because you're mixing in the tone from a pickup placed closer to the bridge where there's less string excursion.

And whenever you have two pickups -- and I'm talking about in phase -- you will always have some cancellation of some of the wavelengths which are shorter than the distance between the two pickups.

Dave, it's been a long time since I struggled through physics but a wave length shorter than the distance between two pickups is an awfully high note, the column of air in a piccillo (sp?)is longer than the distance between the pickups. Bass notes are many meters long, even way up on the neck they are much longer than the distance between the pickups. I think the wave length of the low E is something like 40 ft long. I agree with you about switching from the neck pickup to both pickups though. Hey I always try to give more than 100% know what I mean Dave? I liked that one.
I still think it's because the neck pickup predominates when both vol. are on full, and it's not bass loss, it's low mid loss. I never lost any bottom like that unless my bridge pickup was either way too high or much stronger than my bass pickup. My basses always end up very bassy with both volumes on full with both pickups at approximately the same volume (same height from strings, if they are equal in output). When I roll off the bass volume I get an increase in low mids which some people might interpret as more bass, but it is really more low mid, not bass. I'm telling you, take your pickguard off and roll off the bass volume, you'll hear a huge increase in the treble pickup volume, I was amazed the first time I tried it. I think it is the way they are wired.
Another way to see it is this: put both volumes on full, put your treble tone on full and you bass tone off, you'll have almost no treble if your bass is adjusted anywhere near normal. You can use the bass tone as the tone for both pickups if you leave both volumes on full. Now do the same thing and roll off the bass volume, you'll get tons of treble with only a slight turn because the treble pickup (with the tone on full) is getting turned on.
I wonder if many of the people here have small amps that aren't really capable of reproducing the deep bass a Ric is capable of. The bass pickup on a Ric is very deep because of it's placement near the neck, it's almost all fundamental. If I plug a 4001 with a cap in it into a B-15 it sounds terrible because a B-15 doesn't go low enough, but if I remove the cap it sounds great through the same amp because the low mids are much louder and as a result the whole bass sounds much better with much more presence, that's your basic difference between a stock 4001 and a 4003 (the cap). With a big amp like an SVT or something like that, with both volumes on full you should get a very deep tone, it should shake the room, smaller amps just aren't capable of those low notes at any appreciable volume anyway, unless you have a lot of watts and very good speakers.
I think many people here are mistaking low mids for bass, and I think small amps may also be the reason why many people here think that their bass pickups are weak, not all but some people. Rics are very tricky, idiosyncratic basses, that's why I love them, they definitely are not your ordinary bass, especially a 4001.

Bob, I'm not talking about fundamentals with short wavelengths, I'm talking about upper harmonics of notes whose fundamentals can be found on a guitar or bass fretboard. Think about the sine wave pattern of string vibration of an open or fretted string as it vibrates in halves, thirds, fourths etc. In the upper harmonics, when the wavelengths get real short, some of them will be positive over one pickup and negative over the other, causing a partial harmonic cancellation. Hope that makes sense.

There's no real loss of bass or lower mids, the neck pickup doesn't lose anything, it's just not as prominent when blended with the bridge pickup.

Dave, The term out of phase is totally appropriate in this explanation. I take this quote from the Duncan technical support site:

What do in phase and out of phase mean?
Phase refers to the relationship of two sine waves (signals) to each other. If both signals are at their highest peak (+) at the same time they are in phase. If one signal is at its highest peak (+) while the other signal is at its lowest peak (-) they are 180 degrees out of phase. While a complicated and lengthy explanation of this phenomenon is possible, guitar electronics are fairly simple and a basic understanding goes a long way to ensuring your guitar works properly.
Humbucking pickups have the individual coils connected in opposing phase and each coil uses opposite polarities of a single bar magnet. If either of these two conditions is not met the resulting tone will be thin and nasal sounding. It is the combination of these two elements that give a humbucking pick up it's strong full tone with the majority of hum being cancelled The same thing applies to single coil pick ups. It is the combination of opposing phase and magnetic polarity between a RwRp single coil and a standard single that causes the combination to be noise canceling.

Various other nearly identical explanations of phase relationship can be found on the hum canceling effect known as the, "humbucking effect", in the technical glossary for the Bass Player magazine website and other places.

Reverse polarity wiring between single coil pickups is a phase relationship of 180 degrees out of phase in order to help cancel noise, with minimal signal loss and is done on many guitars with multiple single coil pickups. I believe that it is also true of the Ric 4001/4003 that the bridge pickup is wired in a different polarity from the neck.
I would be interested if anyone knows if the polarity is the same or opposite with the Ric 4001/4003 series.

Sorry, but you're confusing the issue. Let me quote directly from the "Wiring Myths of Olde" section of the Guitarnuts website:

MYTH: Humbucking pickups have two coils which are "out-of-phase."
REALITY: That statement is at best misleading, at worst, incorrect. See the section on pickup theory for a complete treatment of this subject. In short, the two coils of a humbucker have opposite electrical and magnetic polarity so that, while the noise signal is out of phase, the primary signal is in-phase. (end quote)

I'll stand by my statement that humbucking coils are not out of phase with each other. One is wired RW/RP with respect to the other; the primary signals are in phase.

Rickenbacker single coil pickups are_not_wound this way anyway. They are not humcancelling when both are up full.

I agree with Dave on the pickups being wired in phase with each other, single coil or humbuckers. I also believe that both pickups on a 4001/4003 or even 2 humbuckers on a Les Paul guitar, are wired in-phase (same polarity) with each other.

In my humble opinion, with 2 pickups in 2 different positions within the string length (between neck and bridge, in most cases), wired in phase, there are always some mid frequencies (usually 300Hz-1KHz) from both pickups that are out of phase with each other and "eat" each other up in various degrees when both pickups are cranked full on and combined. This cancelling phenomenom produces a "mid-scooped" sound which lacks mid-punch and definition but is deep, bassy and thick. The more one of the pickups' volume is backed off, the less mid-scooping happens. That's why the bass' sound becomes clearer with either the bass or treble pickup backed off a bit.

The same thing happens when you mike an acoustic guitar with 2 identical microphones, in phase with each other, one pointing at the bridge area while the other points at the sound hole area. When the signals from the 2 mics are combined in a 50/50 balance, some mid frequencies are cancelled out causing the acoustic guitar to sound thicker and rounder but less defined.

With a .0047 cap in the treble pickups signal path, there is less cancelling in the low-mid (300-500Hz) range because everything below 500HZ from the treble pickup is filtered out by the cap so the low-mid from the bass pickup remains intact. When the 2 pickups are full on and combined, you get to hear the mids and lows from the bass pickup added by the treble clank from the .0047 capped treble pickup.

Without a .0047 cap in the bass, I tend to not like the sound of both pickups full on and combined, but like to back off the volume of one of the pickups or use either one alone. The treble pickup sound full alone.
With a .0047 cap in the treble pickup signal path, the sound of both pickups combined is very pleasing to my ears, but of course the treble pickup has no bass frequencies when used alone.

I had quite a weird "out of phase" experience when I just got my Shadow. When the toggle switch was set in the middle with both pickups' volume and tone knobs full on, the output of the bass dropped to almost nothing with only some 2-5KHz barely audible. I suspected something was "out of phase". Sergio taught me to put her treble pickup face to face with her bass pickup and see if they attracted each other...and they did!...meaning one pickup's magnet was facing south while the other's was facing north. So I disassembled the treble pickup, turn over its magnet and reassemble. Things got back to normal then. ( Click here for details.)

Just my humble observations.

I don't know a cap from a capuccino, but it sounds like a switch to activate/cancel the cap is warranted. Pardon me for talking about which I know nothing.

Dave, again you missed the point of what explanation of what I put in there on opposite polarity. I've read the Guitarnut site and the author is correct the signal is in phase when you RW/RP one pickup from the other this is exactly why the noise is out of phase. It's part of the physics of audio and signal flow.
I will try to find my studio maintenance book sometime and try to post the formulas in another subject sometime.
Very interesting about the same polarity wired pickups, if this is the case, I also agree with pickup position on body causing big differences in tone as well.

"... but it sounds like a switch to activate/cancel the cap is warranted."

That's what I like too, Jerry.
I really hope that RIC make the treble volume pot a Push-Pull one to engage and disengage the .0047 cap any time at the player's will. And provide the PP pot as a purchasable parts to RIC players.

Best of both worlds, that is.