Is there any way to fix a key wind/tuner
Moderator: jingle_jangle
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Phil
Is there any way to fix a key wind/tuner
I have some slack in the Key wind of my Rickenbacker 360V64. Is there any way of fixing this? Or should it be replaced? Is this something that I can fix or replace by myself? Or will this void the warrenty? Thanks, Phil
Phil - what did you end up doing?
I've got my 360/12v64 on the bench right now and there is quite a lot of backlash in several of the tuners.
I'm wondering if a set of Gotoh Vintage Klusons would be worth the time... but I have no experience with any of these new tuning machines.
Years ago, I replaced the 6 in-line open-back tuners on a Framus Texan 12 string with mini-Schallers and LOVED them, but I'd rather the Ric be correct "looking".
I recall reading somewhere (here or VoxTalks) that there was a bad batch of tuners and that RIC would replace them (to the warranted owner only I would assume) but I have no further details.
Mark, any thoughts?
I've got my 360/12v64 on the bench right now and there is quite a lot of backlash in several of the tuners.
I'm wondering if a set of Gotoh Vintage Klusons would be worth the time... but I have no experience with any of these new tuning machines.
Years ago, I replaced the 6 in-line open-back tuners on a Framus Texan 12 string with mini-Schallers and LOVED them, but I'd rather the Ric be correct "looking".
I recall reading somewhere (here or VoxTalks) that there was a bad batch of tuners and that RIC would replace them (to the warranted owner only I would assume) but I have no further details.
Mark, any thoughts?
I have worked on three Rick guitars lately that the customers ALL said the same thing or worse about the tuners before I worked on their instruments.
1-You NEVER tune down to a note.
Anyone that deals with gears will tell you that this can not be done .There is only so much that you can do with tightness of teeth .ALL gears have backlash.
2- Are you wwinding the strings on in a haphazard way?
On any six string guitar ,I recommend one of two ways.
the first is this ;one wrap around the top of the post ,then all the other wraps under the string (as it is fed through the hole) and ALL wraps must be under the last one.
Bend the tail of the string up,and cut it off with cutters.
If the string wraps overlap ...you will have lots of slipping.
2- this is the CF Martin method and I don't use it ,because playing live it takes more time to change a broken string .I don't like standing a long time fooling around with broken string ends and want to get back to the business of playing.
1-You NEVER tune down to a note.
Anyone that deals with gears will tell you that this can not be done .There is only so much that you can do with tightness of teeth .ALL gears have backlash.
2- Are you wwinding the strings on in a haphazard way?
On any six string guitar ,I recommend one of two ways.
the first is this ;one wrap around the top of the post ,then all the other wraps under the string (as it is fed through the hole) and ALL wraps must be under the last one.
Bend the tail of the string up,and cut it off with cutters.
If the string wraps overlap ...you will have lots of slipping.
2- this is the CF Martin method and I don't use it ,because playing live it takes more time to change a broken string .I don't like standing a long time fooling around with broken string ends and want to get back to the business of playing.
So you too want yours "ALAPWOB"?!?!
If the guitar is still under warranty ,ask the Rick sales guys.
Most problems of bad tuners are in fact not the tuner at all .
I am not trying to make you sound like you are wrong ,but most guitar players ,for some reason , do not have a clue as to HOW TO INSTALL Strings.
I see these crazy Scout/Sailor knots and what looks like a ball of steel 'Yarn' on the tuners more often than not.
In the late 1970's at Don Wehr's Music City in San Francisco Calif.USA I worked with a German -Klaus Heyne ...we got tired of Santana,Journey,Jefferson Starship and Elvin Bishop's Band having tuning troubles .Their instruments would be great when they left the shop ....but months weeks later ,they would not stay in tune!
After the guitars would return to the shop ,we would find them restrung in all sorts of manner.
One day ,on a Saturday ,We held stringing class with the road crews and some of the artists them self showed up .
It was lots of fun showing these 'Pro's' how to install strings correctly .
They loved this ! We had a great time ...about ten guys with guitars ,peg winders and new strings ....Klaus was a real task master .He enjoys this more than anyone.
Most problems of bad tuners are in fact not the tuner at all .
I am not trying to make you sound like you are wrong ,but most guitar players ,for some reason , do not have a clue as to HOW TO INSTALL Strings.
I see these crazy Scout/Sailor knots and what looks like a ball of steel 'Yarn' on the tuners more often than not.
In the late 1970's at Don Wehr's Music City in San Francisco Calif.USA I worked with a German -Klaus Heyne ...we got tired of Santana,Journey,Jefferson Starship and Elvin Bishop's Band having tuning troubles .Their instruments would be great when they left the shop ....but months weeks later ,they would not stay in tune!
After the guitars would return to the shop ,we would find them restrung in all sorts of manner.
One day ,on a Saturday ,We held stringing class with the road crews and some of the artists them self showed up .
It was lots of fun showing these 'Pro's' how to install strings correctly .
They loved this ! We had a great time ...about ten guys with guitars ,peg winders and new strings ....Klaus was a real task master .He enjoys this more than anyone.
So you too want yours "ALAPWOB"?!?!
As a mechanical engineer, I understand all about gears and backlash.
I've also been stringing guitars for 34 years, and I think I know how to do that now too...
And having had my hands on quite a number and variety of tuning machines in the past 34 years, I also think I can make a qualitive judgement based on experience and comparisons.
But - you're right: backlash is a simple fact of physics and the geometry of gear teeth BUT, cheap gears and poor design of the worm/gear pair can result in a combination which, while it will work and not slip, will still "feel" cheesey.
THAT was my complaint.
I've also been stringing guitars for 34 years, and I think I know how to do that now too...
And having had my hands on quite a number and variety of tuning machines in the past 34 years, I also think I can make a qualitive judgement based on experience and comparisons.
But - you're right: backlash is a simple fact of physics and the geometry of gear teeth BUT, cheap gears and poor design of the worm/gear pair can result in a combination which, while it will work and not slip, will still "feel" cheesey.
THAT was my complaint.
On most of my older guitars ,they came stock with USA made Kluson brand tuners .
When first made they were not too bad ,but as time went on and tooling wore ,they got fairly sloppy.
In the early 1980's Gotoh of Japan began making replacement tuners that look like the USA Kluson tuners.
I got a couple of sets for my Fenders ...they are still on them.
On my Les Paul ...I contemplated going with Schaller's but because of the screw placement ,I held off until Gotoh made a set of Keystone tuners .At the time Grover was also out of production (the rumor was that Kluson made Grovers ..always did !)
The keystone Gotohs are still on my Les Paul .
I have had to tighten the D and G tuner (this is just from bumping the headstock /tuners)and I just did this two days ago ...first time ever for that .
THe Schaller tuners that Rick uses ,I have only seen on a hand full of guitars .
The 3 that I worked on were poorly strung .
Once strung and stretched out ...They were fine .
As Gibson's warranty station since 1981 I have seen a lot of poor /loose Schaller Keystone style tuners .On these the casings come loose.Same as the old Grover bass tuners.Only worse.I have yet to come up with a fix for them.
So I continue to replace all tuners with Japanese Gotoh tuners .I really have had great luck with them.
When first made they were not too bad ,but as time went on and tooling wore ,they got fairly sloppy.
In the early 1980's Gotoh of Japan began making replacement tuners that look like the USA Kluson tuners.
I got a couple of sets for my Fenders ...they are still on them.
On my Les Paul ...I contemplated going with Schaller's but because of the screw placement ,I held off until Gotoh made a set of Keystone tuners .At the time Grover was also out of production (the rumor was that Kluson made Grovers ..always did !)
The keystone Gotohs are still on my Les Paul .
I have had to tighten the D and G tuner (this is just from bumping the headstock /tuners)and I just did this two days ago ...first time ever for that .
THe Schaller tuners that Rick uses ,I have only seen on a hand full of guitars .
The 3 that I worked on were poorly strung .
Once strung and stretched out ...They were fine .
As Gibson's warranty station since 1981 I have seen a lot of poor /loose Schaller Keystone style tuners .On these the casings come loose.Same as the old Grover bass tuners.Only worse.I have yet to come up with a fix for them.
So I continue to replace all tuners with Japanese Gotoh tuners .I really have had great luck with them.
So you too want yours "ALAPWOB"?!?!
I'm certainly not looking for reasons to spend more money on a novelty guitar. I might have replaced the RIC tuners with Gotoh's had I been able to get them prior to my bridge replacement, but I expect to get my new bridge on tonight and I agree 100% that once restrung and tuned, what I have currently will be fine.
Its funny how string wrapping and tuning techniques are so important! I learned long ago how mant wraps were good and not to get overlaps which could slip between underwraps on tightening. And tuning UP vs tuning DOWN to pitch, stretch and ALL that.
I'm also extremely curious to hear what will probably be for me my first encounter with RIC's strings as its clear the 8's on my 360/12 were NOT stock RIC strings...
Its funny how string wrapping and tuning techniques are so important! I learned long ago how mant wraps were good and not to get overlaps which could slip between underwraps on tightening. And tuning UP vs tuning DOWN to pitch, stretch and ALL that.
I'm also extremely curious to hear what will probably be for me my first encounter with RIC's strings as its clear the 8's on my 360/12 were NOT stock RIC strings...