Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

When they do an Amber Fireglo finish,
Is the top final top coat or last few top coats clear or amber as you can see when looking at the ambered binding.
Thanks for a reply.

BTW - I'm been really enjoying looking at all the posts of your work. You are truely a fine craftsman.
We are very lucky to have you here not only as another admirer and owner of Rickenbacker guitars, but also as an experienced builder
and restorationist of these fine instruments.

Thanks for your sense of humor and especially your knowledge to help the rest of us out with our guitars.

Thanks for the kind remarks, Kevin!

The best way I've found to do an ambered finish (which could be Ambered FG, ambered Azureglo, Ambered Autumnglo, etc) is to mix a bit of amber tint into the varnish, and put on a couple of coats of this as the first coats of clear, right over the actual finish color, until I get the color of the finish, binding, etc., to my satisfaction. This could be one or two coats, but it's seldom more.

Once these coats are laid down, I switch to untinted varnish for the rest of my varnish coats. I usually put on eight to ten coats of varnish so there's a nice thick film over the color and amber varnish coats. That way, when I sand the varnish to flatten the finish to glass-smooth, I'm sanding only clear varnish. (If I were to sand tinted varnish, the variance in thickness over the guitar would also mean an undesirable variance of the tinted color.)

I suspect this is how the factory does it, too, although I haven't actually watched them do it.

Thanks alot Paul I suspected that this is the way it would be done.
It makes sense as you say that way you could smooth things out and not damage the color work already completed.

For a reverse question:
If someone requested ambering their new MG finish -
Could an ambered coat be applied to a new undamaged smooth MG finish to make it appear like an old yellowed finish.
Would you then follow with a few coats of clear to smooth as stated before?
OR would you strip down the new finish completely and start over with some amber then follow with multiple coats of clear.

Kevin, is your avatar an Oreo cookie with the text on it?

Actually it is a button I just got off ebay.

ric330 wrote: If someone requested ambering their new MG finish -
Could an ambered coat be applied to a new undamaged smooth MG finish to make it appear like an old yellowed finish.
Would you then follow with a few coats of clear to smooth as stated before?
OR would you strip down the new finish completely and start over with some amber then follow with multiple coats of clear.

In the case of a nearly factory-fresh guitar or bass, this is exactly how it's done, but the MG finish would have to be scuffed first to provide grip for the new ambered varnish and clear varnish overcoats, as the existing finish would have cured and a mechanical bond must be provided.

If a finish is already a few years old, and an ambering is requested, I need to proceed with the caveat that occasionally, otherwise-invisible stress cracks are revealed in an older finish, once new coats of varnish are applied and buffed. These can show themselves as whitish marks within the varnish layers, in which case the old finish must be stripped and a new one needs to be put on in order to have everything look good again.

jingle_jangle wrote:Thanks for the kind remarks, Kevin!

Once these coats are laid down, I switch to untinted varnish for the rest of my varnish coats. I usually put on eight to ten coats of varnish so there's a nice thick film over the color and amber varnish coats. That way, when I sand the varnish to flatten the finish to glass-smooth, I'm sanding only clear varnish. (If I were to sand tinted varnish, the variance in thickness over the guitar would also mean an undesirable variance of the tinted color.)

So the amber layers are treated as secondary color coats. Do you sand between each CV application?

Strictly speaking, it's dual-purpose, serving as both varnish and tint. It's also possible to lay on a color coat of tint over the entire instrument, and then use untinted CV in the usual way.

Incidentally, when I do this ambering process, I mask off the fretboard pearl inlays for all but one coat of ambering, and I keep that coat light. Observation tells me that old Ricks (like the '58-'60 deluxe Capris I've done), though they might have finishes that are quite ambered by age, UV, and smoke, still sport inlays that are not too yellow. Too much amber on the inlays is a distraction, IMO, so I try to keep it more subtle in this area.

Sanding between each CV coat is optional and depends upon whether the CV has passed its "green" state, at which time molecular bonding is unlikely, so a mechanical bond must be provided.

So there are times when it is desirable to apply a coat before the previous one has hardened?

Most times it is desirable. But see below:

Like driving a car or baking a beef Wellington, there's nothing like experience when it comes to sorting complex matters and making things turn out all right. Luthiery and guitar finishing (especially in the case of Rickenbackers, where finishing is an art and science!) are to me two separate disciplines, each with its technologies and practices.

More important still are the "feels" that reside in the process and use of technology, that are transmitted through human hands, controlled by a human brain and nervous system, directly into the instruments whether they are being built, repaired, or played. So, just like driving, where there are basic rules to follow (press down on the accelerator to accelerate, brake to decelerate), it's only in actually getting out there and actually doing, that it is learned that those pedals are not simple on-off switches, but require experience to develop the finesse needed to master the skill.

In the case of finishing, there are literally (and I do mean literally) thousands of individual situations, sets and subsets of attributes and happenstances, coupled with the ever-changing technology, that make each case an individual circumstance, with its own set of problems and challenges, and make hard and fast rules impractical.

In the case of CV, sometimes I can tell ("feel") that a guitar (or I) will need to rest awhile before putting on another coat. Sometimes the whole job has a robust vibe and I feel great and confident putting everything on with only short breaks. I hate to say that instruments talk to me, as that would have me put away somewhere to play pinochle for the rest of my days. Instead, I will say that instruments each have a certain "feel", and the feel of the wood and construction, along with the vibe from the use it's had, tells me a lot about how far I can push the envelope on any given day, or with any given process. We're all players to some degree, and not one of us would say that any two guitars feel exactly alike, even mass-produced Asian bolt-togethers. It's the same to a builder or finisher, believe me, but in a different way.

Weather and climate play a part, too. Cold conditions require modified materials and techniques; excessively warm and humid conditions require other adjustments be made, sometimes "on the fly".

I mention all of this, not as a critique of you personally, Ted, but rather as a sort of statement of the long road that needs to be travelled before a person can really feel adept in this role. I don't, either, mean to mystify or romance the whole topic. I think those of us who have done any sort of work with our hands realize that it is a calling of sorts, with challenges and rewards that both go beyond those found in other, more "workaday" or sedentary, occupations or avocations, and that it's hard to quantify or put into words.

So, take any methodology that I might describe in these posts, and use it as a basis for an expansion of your own knowledge. But by all means, realize that, until that book-larnin' is put into practice on a regular basis, you're only scrapin' the surface of what lies dormant in your own pool of talent.

Oh, and always wear a dust mask or respirator!

Thanks for that explanation Paul,
Always a pleasure reading your posts.
Words of wisdom with words of Caution.

Well, I am not ready to get started yet. I just have a few questions here and there to gain some basic understanding. Like any discipline excellence comes with experience and practice. I just had it in my head that the layers had to be hardened before the next one goes down.

If you spray CV over hardened CV without scuffing, the layers will peel like an onion...

Yes, I got that part. CV changes chemically as it crosslinks. It does not redesolve into a usable form in the original solvents (like nitro or shellac) so it needs mechanical help (i.e. sanding). The part I did not know is that it can (should?) be applied over a soft / slightly soft under layer.

The finish, as it crosslinks, goes through a partially-linked state called "green". This is characterized by the solvents being mostly evaporated and the surface just having left its sticky state. With most CVs, this state is good to go for about 24 hours for recoating without sanding.

CVs take about 96 hours to harden and undergo their first stage of shrinking; following this they can be sanded and buffed; full shrinkage depends upon the wood and number of coats, but can take up to three months or in extreme cases, more. If the wood is open-grained, a second sanding and buffing may be called for.

I have recommended Scratch-X and Zymol as a handy method to restore older CV finishes to good gloss. It is possible to also re-sand and re-buff a dull CV finish to factory freshness. This must be done with great care and requires some specialized power equipment. The results can be nearly as good as a refinish, although it won't undo cracks and chips.