Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

In the spirit of the ongoing RM "rarest" bass thread, I thought I'd post about my latest "RM-ization" of my V63, and possibly the most significant yet: the new/old "real" horseshoe!

Dale Fortune made me a bobbin in the same style as the early '60s ones, and affixed it to the HS magnets and baseplate I sent him, which were culled from a (really, actually thrashed and unplayable, no really, I can prove it, I didn't hack up a good instrument, I swear!) lap steel. He wound it to right about 8K, to match well with the short-pole '60s toaster I had in there already. I got it yesterday and stuck it in there last night and went to rehearsal with a friend I play with, and I've been goofing around with it this morning/afternoon with my full stage rig set up in my apartment (sorry, neighbors!).

Verdict: it certainly solves the problem of not enough top end! It's bright and brash and extremely clanky - exactly what I needed to accentuate. There's a noticeable increase in the "boingy" response from the Rotos, and a lot of (very pleasant) harmonic distortion. Interesting phenomena: the pole pieces are actually much more sensitive to "directionality" than I would have guessed based on the physical nature of the HS magnets. Bending the strings off the poles, for instance, definitely results in a noticeable level drop, just like on a P-90 or other protruding pole-piece pickup. Also, as I suspected, it doesn't have enough "oomph" to drive my little "Jack Bruce" diode circuit I put in my switchbox. And I will likely need to readjust my other stage basses to get the treble pickups' overall output in line with this one. But boy, it really changes the whole character of the bass. Going as I do for the Chris Squire sound as a "base-line" tone (ooh, bad!), it does clearly put me in that ballpark immediately. If anything, I expect I'll spend even more time on stage with both volume and tone pots down to around 8, just to keep the last bits of "clank" in reserve. And yes, the .0047 cap's staying in - it also seems to have much greater effect with this HS than the old RI one. At some point I may try "jumpering" it just to hear the pickup in it's full unadulterated glory, but the cap's so much of what I rely on for my stage sound that I'm not messing with it now.

I also finally replaced my crummy voltmeter with a decent one, and read the old RI HS just to see, and it's wound to 13K! No wonder! I plan to unwind it before it goes on the next bass it's destined for (which is still unknown at the present....)

I know my conversion may seem backwards to some of you (weak pickups? Jeff Rath? ), or seem to be me misguidedly chasing something impossible or foolish (replicating a '60s bass with a '90s reissue doesn't, does it?), but it has given me a much greater appreciation for the original '60s basses and all their quirks, and how those basses in the right hands changed the sound of the bass guitar in rock music. Besides, this is as close as I think I'll ever come to the "real thing" (and the neck's sorta stable too!)....

Um, pics?

Yes, Sir!

I shall have some up some time this evening....

I don't know why but the extra cap does not seem to hurt the sound of the old style HS pickups. Yes, they are totally different from the VRI HS pickups. While I like the sound of the VRI pickups (both styles) they do not recreate the sound of the old ones.

rickfan60 wrote:I don't know why but the extra cap does not seem to hurt the sound of the old style HS pickups. Yes, they are totally different from the VRI HS pickups. While I like the sound of the VRI pickups (both styles) they do not recreate the sound of the old ones.

Ain't that the truth. Congrats, Paul. How about a sound sample. Having a V63, I know how they sound stock. Wish I could find a trashed lap steel. Another reason to wish I'd grown up in CA. I've seen one Rick steel here. In really good shape.

John, I will try to get a sound sample together if I can manage it technologically. That sort of thing is a good idea for the Forum in general!

My impression overall is that the old pickup combo with the "weak" HS or early higain plus the .0047 cap is very effective for those who use a combination of both pickups, but less so for those who are accustomed to using the treble pickup by itself. Having done it both ways myself, I can see both sides of the cap/no cap argument. But with this setup, I'm all cap all the way. That said, it is a bit too thin to use by itself. If I were doing that, I'd bypass the cap.

Oh, and I picked up the steel on the 'Bay - but it was in Nevada, so practically in CA, so point taken....

Those weak 60's horseshoes are not always so weak. Mine surprises most people who play my '63. It is loud and punchy. If you play it hard finger style it sounds like s#it but hard with a pick flat across the strings it is wonderful. Played lightly or moderately either way it is a joy (for me anyway).

Good point, Ted - with the directionality of the pole pieces, the direction of attack has a huge effect on the quality of the tone. With fingerstyle, I have to be careful not to "pop" the pole pieces, and it does sound more ungainly. For that technique, I imagine I'll dip the HS volume down a bit more. It sounds a bit better up by the neck, Entwistle "typewriter" style, where the growl comes out more.

If I can get the sound sample thing together, I may do a "with cap vs. without" taste test just to illuminate myself (and hopefully others).

Okay, these pics are certainly not up to the professional standards of Mr. Scott, et al, but then again, as the fellow almost said, what immortal hand or eye could frame thy joyful asymmetry:

A couple more. The stuff on the G pole piece is wax Dale used to keep the pole pieces in place - it's already starting to come off!

Interesting and timely topic! Just yesterday I received the new wiring harness for the 4000 / 4001S conversion I'm doing to the '69. Pickguardian made the new guard and John A. wired it up for me.
I added an old short pole toaster and John put a push / pull tone pot in for the rear pu. I didn't get to mess with it for very long last night, but I have to agree that the best tone is the two combined, especially when using a pick.
The hot RI horsey and toaster in the V63 work great in my current band for that modern aggressive thick tone, but I like the tone of the weaker pu's better. They seem more musical.

Always interesting to see, (or should that be hear) comparisons on the HS subject.

The old HS's have that fragile timbre, a treble bleed almost, that compliments the usually dominant toaster. If you like that vintage sound/tone, there's no real substitute, and a RI is a totally different animal.

My white 64 RM HS needs a good charge in all probability. It sounds like a tiny fart, just on it's own. The toaster is huge, and you could never just play on the treble pick up, there's simply not enough there. It's a similar case on my green bass as well, although that HS does sound louder.

I think for many vintage players, the HS was always a difficult p/up to balance, and there is distortion if you dig in finger style usually. It's a delicate beast, and it's not surprising to see so many old vids where the guys play on the toaster with that warm bass sound the priority, not the clank.

I personally find the RI a far superior sounding unit. The harmonics and fullness can't be beat by any Ric p/up. I don't need those shoes in the way either!

A note to all - just send all your unwanted pickups and shoes to the "Allgaier Ranch for Unwanted Horseys."

wints wrote: I personally find the RI a far superior sounding unit. The harmonics and fullness can't be beat by any Ric p/up. I don't need those shoes in the way either!

+10!

I do appreciate your honesty, Andy!

The original 'shoes are cool old historic things and I can understand how some people prefer them for their sound, their look, their feel, or their history. But for me (and my playing style) they aren't the best choice by a long shot.

About four years ago, when my band was coming off hiatus, I was getting tired of dealing with the stereo splitting setup, and I started just using the treble pickup only. By all means, the RI HS by itself with no cap was far superior sounding to anything the new/old HS could produce, or any P-Bass or similar one-pickup bass I've ever used or experienced. I even recorded a whole album that way, just that HS into a Marshall 50 watt with 4 12's. It wasn't "the" sound I'd been striving to get from my V63, but it was a solid, rich tone that had no faults. But eventually, the flexibility wasn't enough for me, and I could never quite get the right amount or kind of top end, so I re-committed to the stereo rig. With the pickup and component changes I've made, I'm finally in the ballpark.

I may come to miss that solid RI HS sound, which is why I'm keeping it for future use in a future bass, but the changes have been right for my V63 and the relationship that I have with it.

One thing I find interesting is how very little actual signal is necessary from the HS to create the best-blended "clanky" tone. It was true for the RI, but with the "real" HS it's even more noticeable. Through the Marshall, the volume setting is just shy of 1 - it requires that little. All the body of the tone is coming from the toaster. So in this way the cut cap does help, by pre-filtering out the low-end which I derive almost entirely from the toaster. Set up as it is, it could easily sound similar even in a standard mono setting.