Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

I've shifted this discussion here, since I think that it is of general interest and deserves broad exposure and responses.

First question. What is the cost of production of the Rick trapeze tailpiece?

I have one before me as I write. It is a simple flat piece of metal, with a bracket almost as simple, a few screws and and plastic zip-lock bag. I'd say a couple of bucks, maximum, to produce.

Now, what do they sell for, new, as Rick spare parts?

Well, depends. In the US Pick-of-the-Ricks sell 'em for $60 US (http://www.pickofthericks.com/cart32_tailpieces.htm),
while the Music connection (http://www.the-music-connection.com/ricpart.htm#bridges) have them for a (relatively) more reasonable $40.

Now if the cost of production is $2, allowing for 100% wholesale and retail mark-ups gives a retail price of $8, more or less, as being reasonable. Say $10 to be generous.

So we're looking at 4-6 times a reasonable price, being charged retail in the US.

If you live outside the US, you can't even access one at $40-$60 because of the Rick franchise agreement which forbids shipping them off-shore.

But wait, there's more. If you wish to purchase one of these basic beauties in the UK via an authorised Rick dealer you will pay $200. Thats right, 20 times a reasonable price, and 3-5 times the US price.(http://www.rickysounds.co.uk/Chrome.html). Believe it!

This then gets you thinking about production costs for some of the other parts which are rather more complex (for me)to guess at. Similar gross markups there too? I don't know, but I wouldn't bet against it.

Someone is making a lot of money here on each unit. Who? Is it Rick? Or the franchise? I suspect both.

Now the pricing cannot be argued to be high to avoid them being stick on fakes, because I have NEVER seen a trapeze on a Rickenfaker, and I've made quite a study of these. In addition, unlike the R tailpiece, it would be extremely easy to clone the trapeze as it is so simple, so Rick acting in this fashion to price the trapeze out of the putative faker market would not work in any case (I understand the "R" has never been faked as it is too complex to profitably do).

Now it seems to me that Rick appeal to our better natures in their arguments against Rickenfakes - it is a form of moral theft to copy, as well as legal theft. Well, this form of price gouging is a form of moral theft as well.

To me it breaches part of the implicit contract between Rick and their buying public. It is an even greater form of moral theft - indeed a form of discrimination - against non-American Rick customers who suffer from the gouging of the fewer Rick franchises off-shore. I certainly feel morally much less vehemently opposed to Rick copies following this little discovery.

Another question: does Rick charge the same US wholesale prices to US and non-US franchises, or do they charge foreign franchises more on their guitars, thus making additional money out of us foreigners? In other words, who's making the money for the higher prices of foreign Ricks? (adjusting for shipping and taxes, they're still higher) Is it Rick or the franchises?

Regardless, the buck must stop with Rick. If it is solely the franchises responsible, then they are ruining Rick's reputation and it is up to John Hall to have a quiet word with them about their pricing, followed by stronger action if no reduction in price eventuates.

Bu the easiest solution is this. Rick sell trapezes - and all their other parts - at cost plus a reasonable profit margin + P&P to ALL the world on their website. No discrimination between countries. No excess pricing. Just fair and square trading.

Thoughts?

Pick Of The Ricks and The Music Connection sell the trapeze tailpiece for exactly the same price - $40. They both sell the trapeze mounting bracket for exactly the same price - $20. Incidentally, these prices are what RIC charges for the parts in their boutique.

If the prices outside the U.S. are so much higher, why aren't you asking your distributor these questions?

One answer is that it is Rick who make decisions on distributors. It is Rick who make the decision that they will not ship their parts offshore, regardless of circumstances. But also, as importantly, because $60 US still seems rather excessive for a couple of small pieces of functionally shaped chromed metal, a few screws, and a plastic bag, even in your neck of the woods. Why so much for so little, at the factory gate? Even if I'm not allowed to buy it, at that price, it still seems a good question to ask to me. Hell, you can buy yourself a half-way decent Tele copy for that much these days.

Last year, RIC began allowing North American dealers to ship RIC parts anywhere in the world. Almost overnight, guitar manufacturers outsie of the U.S. began ordering Rickenbacker parts en masse - To put on copies. RIC was forced to tighten up it's policy on parts sales.

I've NEVER seen a trapeze on a copy. Never. I stand to be corrected.

And if faking is the concern, limit private buyers to one part of each type and don't ship to the same postal address twice. Setting up a data base to monitor this would be easy.

And would it also be possible that all the overseas sales were due to (1) legitimate pent up demand (2) stock build up in case Rick ran out? Indeed, since they're not cropping up on copies, this seems most likely.

In any case the question about whether $60 is a fair price in the US, given costs of making it, remains the elephant in the room.

Whoever said Rickenbacker had to charge a "reasonable" markup? There are thousands of products priced with huge markups that cost almost nothing to make. Ain't called a "free market" for nothing.

Where did you arrive at a cost of $2 anyway...?

If you bring one down to a machine shop in the US and ask them to make you one, including the chrome plating you would be looking at somewhere in the $100-150 range. Depending on what type of set up they would need to make a quantity of one.

If you brought one to a production sheet metal shop and wanted to make 100, and pay the lot charge at the chrome plating house you would still probably be looking at $10-15 ea total. I am sure you could make them for less than $2 ea overseas, if you made thousands of them.

You cannot manufacture anything in the US for $2. I am an engineer for a company that manufactures machinery in the US. Trust me, it is expensive.

EDIT: And I am only referring to the actual trapeze not the mounting bracket with it.

The cost of the chrome plating alone is more than $2.

If I don't think something's a good value, I don't buy it.

There's no moral theft going on here: RIC owns that design, and produces the product. At the time RIC produces its tailpieces, it owns the metal, the chrome, and whatever it takes, to have the items produced. Inherent in the concept of ownership is the right to dictate the terms of a thing's use, including the price it's going to be sold at, so RIC can sell their parts at whatever price they want, and no one else has the right to tell RIC what to charge for the things it produces; if people think it's too expensive for a Ric trapeze, then RIC won't sell any.

Try buying a replacement part for anything that's made of metal and chromed these days and see what it costs; I've bought numerous chromed or nickel finished replacement parts for classic bikes, guitars, and faucet levers/handles. None of these things is cheap, or even approaching $2, by any means.

I have yet to pay list price for any part, Rick or non-Rick, at my local dealer. I have never seen a dealer charge list for a guitar either. There is generally a 30% to 40% mark down on most items. I am sure that there are some exceptions but I have yet to encounter one.

If I were to fabricate one myself I would use stainless and buff it to a shine.

Simon,
if you think it's so easy and cheap to make- THEN MAKE ONE YOURSELF !!!!!!!!!!!

I know that in the US, especially here on the west coast, the production and chrome plating (big part of the cost), should generally be way above the $40-$60 that they parts are priced at. Ric is only able to do it this cheaply because they make them in bulk.

I don't know what kind of magical world you live in, but machining services and chrome plating cost money here....

Ric has it's no-foreign policy in it's franchise agreements for a reason. There is nothing stopping you from watching ebay and snagging one that a seller is willing to ship abroad.

beatlefreak wrote:Last year, RIC began allowing North American dealers to ship RIC parts anywhere in the world. Almost overnight, guitar manufacturers outsie of the U.S. began ordering Rickenbacker parts en masse - To put on copies. RIC was forced to tighten up it's policy on parts sales.

I understand that, Kris. but I can kind of understand Simon's frustration. Kenny Howes did indicate, however, that the guy selling the $200 trapeze is not an authorized RIC dealer, so I guess he can charge whatever he wants. I just wouldn't buy from him.

But I really don't think the prices are the biggest issue. It's the sheer difficulty of actually finding someone who stocks RIC parts in Europe or Australia or wherever. I know of several sites on the net where folks in the USA can order RIC parts from authorized dealers. I don't know of any outside the US. I think that causes a lot of frustration for honest, loyal customers who just need the odd pickup or tailpiece and aren't conspiring to flood the market with counterfeit Rickenbackers.

It's thinkable that RIC, if they wished to, could implement a policy of allowing international orders for parts only through the the company's website and then only for private individuals in limited quantities. No orders from guitar companies and no ordering eight toasters or a dozen tailpieces in one crack. This way someone in Europe or Oz who just needs some control knobs for his Ric doesn't have to jump through hoops to try to find them.

But keep the current restriction in place for retailers. This would prevent any potential counterfeiters from ordering small quantities of the same part from several different stores across the country. If all international parts requests ran solely through RIC, they could easily track who ordered what items and then simply refuse further sales to those obviously attempting to take advantage of system.

Just a thought.

chai-man wrote:In any case the question about whether $60 is a fair price in the US, given costs of making it, remains the elephant in the room.

Speaking as an American craftsperson with some fine metal experience, I couldn't afford to make you one for less than wholesale, given the small legitimate demand, not a pretty one. The price is fair, IMHO.

I'll answer some of the questions posed but I have no intentions of responding to some of the other ridiculous comments.

The suggested retail price of both the trapeze itself and the mounting bracket is US$60. Reviewing the actual costs, it's well within the formula used by us and most manufacturing firms for pricing parts.

Dealers pay us a certain percentage of the suggested list. Distributors pay somewhat less (for guitars too), due to the volume business they do, as well as the many costs of doing business they foot as compared to domestic dealers.

We're certainly not making much money on these types of parts and it most certainly is NOT our job to suggest to any seller what they sell goods for. In fact, until very recently, that practice would have illegal in the U.S. though now there are some easier rules. Sellers live and die by their own sword; as said elsewhere, if you don't like the price then shop somewhere else.

I'd love to be able to sell worldwide through the website but the last time we offered parts internationally, things got out of hand very quickly. Like, who reasonably needs a dozen pickups? As far as maintaining some sort of registry, well, you don't like the cost already- imagine if those extra administrative costs were added back into the parts cost.

Simon, establishing worldwide FRIENDSHIPS has its benefits. Notice the emphasis.

I now order parts when Relatives or friends are in the States for Holiday or Work. I just cant imagine people who have wrong intentions won't do the same. When there is money involved it is probably even easier to find friends in the States.

And as far as Merchandise concerns I would love to see some kind of Rickenbacker cafepress shop. Just like the RRF cafepress items. I would spend a lot of money there. However; I do have a lot of respect for Rickenbacker for keeping as much of the things Rickenbacker sell under own control as posible.