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The Horseshoes are explained - Finally
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:55 am
by sashua
I was waiting for this from Dale and thought you should all hear the last word on the subject now that my wording has been corrected on the auction. To our moderators, I am not trying to stir up trouble here but felt it only fair since both Dale's and my reputation's were brought into question that the record be set straight. Many here have requested "transparency"....well feel free to have a read and lock the thread.
Dear Russ
The bobbins that I have are of 2 types: 1st the molded vacuum formed plastic ones of black vinyl that were made by "Doc" Kauffman for Rickenbacker AKA Electro String in the 60s, they were given to me by "Doc" in the early 70s when the factory no longer used or needed them. He made 2 types, black vinyl and white vinyl. Most people and collectors don't know that bit of info about the white ones since the only type used by Rickenbacker were the black ones. The 2nd type I have are the green circuit board type material used in the 60s and 70s. These are from the 60s that were being thrown away. I rescued them when Dick Burke gave me permission to take them from the dumpster after work. In Dicks' own words: anything in the dumpster can be taken out and kept for ones own use after work, because Ward Deaton, the GM doesn't want anyone going through the dumpster on Company time. This is what your bobbins are made of, original green ciruit board material from the 60s. Yours were also wound with vintage enamel coated copper coil wire at vintage OHM specs. The magnets that were used for your pickups are original vintage pieces of the same size, dimensions and quality that were used on the guitar, lap steel guitar and basses during the 50s and 60s. The aluminum base plates and brass screws/bolts are original 50s/60s pieces. The magnnets, base plates, and screw/bolt parts were supplied by you and are of original vintage that were in impeccable condition.
The only parts that were used on the restoration/rebuild of your HS pickups were the steel slot blade screws for pole pieces, which I tried to match ACAP to vintage 60s' look.
As for being a Manager at Rickenbacker/Electro String: Dick Burke was the woodshop mgr. I took orders from him and his asst. mgr. I'll leave the asst. mgrs. name out of this as I assume that John Hall knows who he was and since he's not involved in this matter I think it would be best to do so. He was much like Roger R. and Paul B. with his alcohol and drinking problems affecting his work and job. These are known facts about those Rickenbacker workers, both died of alcohol related issues which is a terrible thing that caused issues in their lives. The same happened to the asst. mgr. that I worked under. Many a day the asst. mgr. would show up to work after a night of drinking, or sometimes not showing up for work at all. When this happened I would assume his duties in the wood shop which in a way made me the acting asst. mgr. I never considered myself as a mgr., I even convayed this to Hall in a personal Email. This was during the early 70s from 72 through 76 not the 60s. IMO you have ACAP HS pickups that can't be bought or found unless someone is willing to remove and sell theirs from a vintage 50s/60s Rickenbacker bass/guitar. I don't believe this will happen in our life time, but one never knows. This is the best I can do with an explanation about the HS pickup issue. If someone feels they know more about life at Electro String and things that went on during that era then I applaud them.
Thanks for your interest in this matter Russ.
Your friend Dale Fortune
The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:11 am
by wints
Just a quick reply to Russ's thread seeing as that has been locked after a few hours. This can be locked after posting too.
This is not an issue of Dale Fortune's integrity or work. It never has been.
It's about the way you presented the auction listing specifically, which many here thought was vague and potentially misleading, whether it was intentional or not.
Even now, you still have the item still listed as a 1963 pick up. Given the information you disclosed here, wouldn't it be much more "transparent" if you listed it as something like "60's Rickenbacker Horseshoe Pick Up For Bass" with a sub heading such as "All genuine 60's parts" and then stating the originality of where the parts came from and who did the work?
Or is that too much disclosure?
It's simply about that principle...
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:07 am
by headbanger
It's simply about that principle...
Indeed. Something that seems to have escaped even the administrators of this site as they seem to want to silence everyone but Mr Rubman.
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:15 pm
by jaymi
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:50 pm
by admin
With three threads going at the same time before any were locked it is difficult to imagine that any aspect of the Horseshoe situation has been missed. It has been quite a detective story and surely one of great interest to many. Hence the additional threads generated by posters.
That the initial ad might have been worded differently seems to have been accepted by nearly all who have posted. Further, it has, apparently, been changed to more accurately reflect the facts pertinent to this product.
Perhaps some discussion about how these horseshoes sound, the materials used in their construction, additional photographic information and the like would round out the field with regard to this coveted pickup. It seems clear that the importance of accurately describing Rickenbacker items for sale has again been underscored.
I thank you all for your patience and your critiques offered in this manner. We are not perfect in our work here, but it is our goal to move in that direction to the extent which it is humanly possible.
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:13 pm
by rickenbrother
headbanger wrote:It's simply about that principle...
Indeed. Something that seems to have escaped even the administrators of this site as they seem to want to silence everyone but Mr Rubman.
Gerry, that's really not the intent for locking up or deleting threads, it to stop the bickering and mudslinging that can go on in some of these types of threads.
jaymi wrote:If you have a personal beef, take it to PM I am tired of seeing padlocks...
I agree with you, Jaymi. The moderators really don't enjoy having to lock up threads. It is done out of necessity as I've stated above.
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:15 pm
by aceonbass
I remember a couple years ago when Mark Walker had a vintage spec bridge pickup surround on Ebay. Even accepting it's source, a REAL chrome plated brass 60's RIC lapsteel surround that had been cut and reshaped just the way RIC did it back in the day, many forum members called it a repop, or copy, or fake. This was a real, 100% 60's part with nothing new added and only some material removed. I got two of these from Mark, and John Hall himself confirmed what it was and how they were made back in the day when he saw one on my modded 4004CiiTR. I believe as a result of all the discussion here dogging that very nice piece,the Ebay sale closed low, yet some would pay big money for and praise the pieced together Ebay horseshoe without question. Just seems a bit duplicitous to me, that's all.
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:20 pm
by rickenbrother
I think everyone has had their say now and made their points. Why don't we now do as Peter suggested and direct the discussion in the direction of the attributes and sound of these and other horseshoe pickups.
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:21 pm
by thinneckrick
There were plenty of things said to mr. Rubman as well . Just read the remaining thread .they are 60's pickups with real shoes. I agree that Mr Rubmans description of them in the for sale adds could have been a little more precise . But, all in all, there as real as it gets. real 60's bobbins , real 60's shoes .
The likely hood of finding a real vintage horseshoe designated for an early 60s bass, is like trying to find a needle in a stack of needles.next to impossible .Those of us guitar purist should feel extremely lucky that there are people still able to build these vintage treasures . and in a quality and style that make them worthy of arguing about
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:29 pm
by aceonbass
Okay, how about a direct comparison between an original 60's horseshoe and the reconstructed one. Since the 60's pots had different values than the current ones, it would be more accurate to shunt both bridge pickups with a pair of alligator clips and some wire right to their output jacks. Quantitative measurements such as ohms rating and frequency response could me taken followed by A/B ing the basses into different amps, say a good modern transistorized amp and a good tube amp.
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:32 pm
by rickenbrother
We could also include a comparison to the RIHS pickups as well.
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:36 pm
by thinneckrick
good call . But there would probably be alot of difference in them . Factors involving aged coil wire , and how much magnetizim is left in the shoes . I think you could probably see a difference in all of them even if you had a dozen lined up in a row .
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:41 pm
by thinneckrick
Good suggestion Joey. But they would be completly different as they do not have real magnetized shoes.
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:46 pm
by aceonbass
I think we can safely assume that Dale used the same gauge wire as RIC(44) and re-gaused the shoes, although it would be helpful to know. I think the early 80's horseshoes did have magnetic shoes, so those would be a good test subject in this comparison as well.
Re: The Horseshoes are explained - Finally-Part 2
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:47 pm
by thinneckrick
age is the key .
