Amp recommendations for going stereo with my 4001

[personatech]

Hi all,

I had originally posted this in Rickenbacker basses where many helpful folk suggested that I post here:

I'm trying to sketch out a plan to go stereo with my 4001. My current gear is as follows:

1974 Rick 4001 Azureglo
Ashdown ABM500 head
Schroeder 1212L cab
various effects

"Retired" gear includes:
Ashdown 180W EB180-12 combo
Vox Valvetronix AD15VT combo

I can't play worth a darn, but I've just sold a PRS SE Custom Semi-Hollow to finance the purchase of a CIJ Jazzmaster.

So, my plan is this: to sell both the EB180-12 and Valvetronix combos and purchase a single amp that is well-suited for both the Jazzmaster and for running the treble pickup of the Rick in stereo mode. My real concern is to not kill the guitar amp with the bass; for instance, I'd considered simply going to a larger Valvetronix but was cautioned against doing so elsewhere in RRF.

My thinking is that I'd want at least a 1x12 combo, possibly a 2x10 or 2x12. I also should mention I'd like to keep the weight and size down as much as possible. The guitar tone I seek is something between jazz and Tom Verlaine - nothing too grungy with distortion. Based on this criteria, my current candidates are: Vox AC15CC1, Fender Deluxe VM, Fender Super-Sonic, Polytone Mini-Brute II, or possibly a Roland Jazz Chorus 77 or 90.

I'm curious if anyone here has used any of these amps in a Rick stereo bass rig -OR- if there are other alternatives you can recommend.

Thanks,

Tom

[whojamfan]

Good chance you will kill all of those amps unless you really keep the volume down, and even that is no guarantee. I would get a keyboard amp with no less than a 15" speaker in it and a couple hundred watts or so. Peavey makes some real workhorses you can pick up for next to nothing used.

A keyboard amp(which is basically a PA system in a box)and a guitar floorboard processor, like the ones Vox, Line 6, Korg etc, makes, would be the way to go. Set the processor for "direct" or "power amp", as the keyboard amp just makes what you put in to it louder, unlike a guitar amp that really changes the sound of the guitar.

Keyboard amps generally come with 2 to 4 channels. Plug the guitar in to the channel with the least amount of eq on it, or maybe there is a direct input of some type in the back. Turn the volume all of the way down on the processor before turning the amp on, your ears will thank you later.

There should be 1 channel that has a graphic or elaborate type of EQ on it. This is where you plug the 4001 pickup in to. The EQ should let you fine tune the tone of the pickup to your desire. You can also use a pedal, the Sansamp VT pedal comes highly recommended here, to give your bass even greater versatility over sound and dynamics. The options are limitless, as the keyboard amp is just a clean amp built for maximum headroom.

One thing that is nice about this set up is that you don't have to unplug either instrument while playing, so no changes to the controls are required.

Hope this answers your question, and let us know what you decide to do

[qwezirider]

Good chance you will kill all of those amps unless you really keep the volume down, and even that is no guarantee.

O.k., I came back over here (from the bass forum) for your answer on the non-feasibility of using a guitar amp. Not being argumentative at all, but curious about the physics behind the chance of killing the amp. Again, I've been using the AD50VT to augment my bass rig. I take all the bass and mid frequencies out of the Vox, using only highs and a hint of distortion on the bass. This makes for a tremendously ****** thin sound on its own, but blended with the bass rig, it all sparkles well. So if I've removed the most dangerous frequencies to the guitar amp from a bass and I get no more speaker movement than from a guitar, where would the damage be likely to come from.

Honestly curious about your knowledge of this.

Thanks!

[cjj]

I'm not terribly familiar with the amps you mentioned, but typically, it's not the amp you'll hurt, it's the speakers. If those are compo type amps (built-in speakers), that's the worry. Guitar speakers are typically not designed tor the low frequency and longer voice coil travel of bass frequencies...

[personatech]

Thanks for the keyboard amp suggestion. My greatest concern would be how a guitar might sound through it. As far as guitar amps are concerned, I find myself leaning more towards the Bassman idea - essentially a thin-sounding bass amp that guitarists have found gives great tone to their instruments and takes pedals well. Still, aside from qwizerider, it seems that bass players who actually use the 4001/4003 stereo feature are hard to come by. Q's use of the Valvetronix was exactly what I was first considering using, although I'd admit I'd probably want to drive a bit more mids than he from his description.

In the "stupid question" category, let me offer this gem: Would it be possible to replace the stock guitar speakers in a combo with efficient bass speakers that can better handle bass response without having too great an adverse impact on the guitar sound?

[qwezirider]

Q's use of the Valvetronix was exactly what I was first considering using, although I'd admit I'd probably want to drive a bit more mids than he from his description.

Which is what I use the bass rig to cover. The Vox is strictly for nice textures on top of the bass rig's sound

In the "stupid question" category, let me offer this gem: Would it be possible to replace the stock guitar speakers in a combo with efficient bass speakers that can better handle bass response without having too great an adverse impact on the guitar sound?

I don't see why not, as long as your ohmage and wattage of the speakers match the amp's capabilities and needs.

[cjj]

{I'm not a huge expert on speakers, but I'd think you could replace the speakers with bass speakers and be OK. This bigger problem would be that bass speakers, which are designed for the bigger movements required for low frequencies, often require more power to drive them. This makes sense when you consider that it takes more energy to move the coil/cone further. If you don't have the watts in the amp, you might not get a lot of volume.

As for people who use "stereo", I've been using it for decades. I've used various amps and speaker setups over the years. My current rig has Sansamps for the front end, an RBI and an RPM. Treble pickup into the RBI, Bass into the RPM. The outputs of the Sansamps go into the 2 channels of a Rane AC22B electronic crossover. The low outputs from each channel are mixed and sent to one channel of a Carvin DCM1540L, the high outputs are mixed and sent to the Carvin's other channel. The low output goes to Ampeg 15's, the high channel goes to Ampeg 10's.}


WhoJamFan-This is a great way to do it, pure front end, pure power, proper speakers. If you have the funds, a setup such as this would be ideal.

I can't give you any physics equations, only many years of seeing people kill guitar amps playing bass through them. If you keep the volume low and play steadily, you may never have a problem. When you get locked in to the groove of a great performance, you have a tendency to "lean" harder in to it and increase string attack. After performing a great song, you may want to turn up that "thin" sounding amp that isn't responding to your dynamics like the bass amp is, and that's where things tend to blow. This doesn't take in to account the person that doesn't know any better and just plugs in and cranks it.

Anybody using a guitar amp to play a bass through, I wish you all the best, and you may never have a problem. It would really stink to blow 4 nice 10s on a Bassman, or 2-12s in the combo. Replacing the speakers can cost as much as a good used amplifier, depending on what you buy.

I had a Vox T-60 that the 12 inch speaker went bad in, and had a bear of a time finding a replacement speaker for it. I ended up having to replace it at a service center, and that was not cheap. Finding bass speakers to go in to a guitar amp that will do the job will be a task in itself.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck, and keep us posted. -WhoJamFan

[whojamfan]

How strange that all I did was quote CJJ, and my last post ended up like that. I have no idea why that happened

[cjj]

How strange that all I did was quote CJJ, and my last post ended up like that. I have no idea why that happened

Hmm, it looks like it decided to let you edit my post instead of quoting it... Weird.

[whojamfan]

Yeah, I probably hit the wrong button

You do have a slamming setup there Cjj!

[jps]

Yeah, I probably hit the wrong button

Darned buttons!

[cjj]

Yeah, I probably hit the wrong button

Darned buttons!

As an RRF consultant, he must get buttons that us mere mortals don't see...

[jps]

Yes, we do, but since my photography section is quite civilized I have yet to use them.

[cjj]

Want me to go "spice" it up for ya???