Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

My new band is recording all rehearsals and it's really benefited all of us in terms of getting songs tighter and generating ideas for improvement. One of these recent ideas on my part is... well... maybe my fretless is too bright-sounding, as fretless goes. Or maybe it's something else. But there's a certain zing on the upper notes that I'm not sure is really appropriate for what I'm doing. I have posted one song to my Myspace from rehearsal that has a fairly prominent bass part so you can really hear the tone and get an idea of what I sound like at present--this was captured with a single portable recording device (Zoom H4-like).

Please listen to "American Kids rehearsal (J. Wiens)" at http://www.myspace.com/joshuachandlerplaysbass. I am only going to leave it up for a few days, so please don't wait any more than a week to listen if you want to help.

I could easily go back to my LaBella Deep Talkin' Flats for a more traditional tone, so if that's what you think I should do please indicate the tone is "too bright". If you think it's fine as it is say "just right". I could also get really brave and try DR Nickel Sunbeams (roundwound) which are supposed to be okay for fretless. If that's what you think I should do, indicate "not bright enough" in the poll. Otherwise do the last option and write a detailed explanation of your thoughts... Of course, everyone is welcome to do that.

Thanks in advance.

Too bright, but not by much. Which GHS strings are on the bass? Which pickups are you using, N, B or both? What kind of amp and EQ settings, etc.? We need more information.

Lose the calluses.

I find it to be just about right - it cuts through the mix well that way. And I'm hearing a good deal of high mids more than just overall brightness. Keep in mind that while flats don't lose as much zing as rounds, those will mellow a bit over time anyway.

Also, there's plenty you can do with your tone knobs, pickup balance and amp EQ that alleviates the need to change strings.

jps wrote:Too bright, but not by much. Which GHS strings are on the bass? Which pickups are you using, N, B or both? What kind of amp and EQ settings, etc.? We need more information.

GHS strings = Brite Flats 43-56-77-104
Amp = Ashdown ABM EVO II 500 with no EQ or SUB, just some tube drive
Effects = Aphex Punch Factory (Drive = 7)
Pickups = Bridge, if I recall correctly (HB-1)
Tone knob = full up (Fender No-Load, out of the circuit)
Setup = This bass has medium action, comparable to a well set up Fender, and has a brass Hipshot bridge so the action is bottomed out at this point. If I went back to the stock bridge I could lose another millimeter of action or two. The neck has the slightest bit of relief.

Lose the calluses.

Does that mean I'm playing too hard? I actually really need that kind of criticism so do tell... Would you suggest increasing the gain at the amp and reducing my attack with my fingers?

A couple of years back I started bleeding out of my middle finger at one of my shows (last song in the set), so Jeff, you could have unearthed a dark trend...

FretlessOnly wrote:Also, there's plenty you can do with your tone knobs, pickup balance and amp EQ that alleviates the need to change strings.

True, I could have dialed off some of the highs--I really like my tone knob now that it's a Fender No-Load with a 0.022 uF cap but forgot to use it so it was out of the circuit. Probably could have taken off the worst of the zing. I just felt like the tone was maybe a little too "stabby" or "crackly" in spots.

Josh, I would have said it's fine (or well within the range of available EQ adjustment on the mixing board) until I got to the key change. At that point, it started to sound a little bit squeally for my taste and I'd probably like to hear it dulled down a bit there. Most of the fretless basses I've played (including the four that I own) seem to have a few "hot spots" - certain notes in combination with certain strings, pre-amps, amps and speaker combos, just seem to resonate brighter and bolder than others. As I'm playing along, I'm sometimes thinking "here comes that high E or F# or whatever - remember not to hit it too hard". The bass is up close and personal in your mix (which is fine) but I kind of got the feeling that the key change was putting you up into a zone where you might want to back off a little bit on some of those notes. Sometimes that means lighter picking pressure, other times it may mean trying to find a softer spot on your finger to pluck those particular notes with.

In any case, I don't think it would require changing strings to mellow out the hot spots a little bit. I think it's more a matter of messing a bit with the tone controls and adjusting the fingering. Remember, it's a lot easier to roll off a little bit of brightness and punch in the mix than it is to try to create some that wasn't recorded there in the first place.

Joshua, I listening to it over a couple times. I'm diggin' the tone and the groove. I don't think it's too bright and it's cool that you find a tone that's different from the norm. I agree with Todd about the hot spots on a fretless bass and compensating for them. I had a similar situation when I was recording the 4001FL for Brian Medway's version of "Georgia On My Mind". I needed to pluck the strings a certain way, aggressive enough,over the end of the neck to help get that upright tone, yet I was trying not to make noise playing like that right up on the neck and compensate for hot spots. It was a real challenge.

teb wrote:The bass is up close and personal in your mix (which is fine) but I kind of got the feeling that the key change was putting you up into a zone where you might want to back off a little bit on some of those notes. Sometimes that means lighter picking pressure, other times it may mean trying to find a softer spot on your finger to pluck those particular notes with.

To clarify, there is no formal mix yet--this is just a portable recorder's snapshot of a rehearsal. I agree that the bass is fairly dominant in that clip. The singer/guitarist's great lyrics to this tune aren't even being done justice--the mic never picks him up well. But I really appreciate your comments about hot spots as I was aware of the key change you are talking about getting squeally--actually in my opinion it's mostly that C#, which, oddly, is only a hotspot if I hit it just wrong. Seems I was doing a good job of that at the rehearsal!! Funny though, I knew this was happening, but until you said something about it I hadn't really formed an opinion.

The funny thing to me is that besides the "mwah" this practically sounds like an average fretted bass. I wondered if that was good or bad, or just unusual.

By the way, I'm strongly contemplating going back to the stock bridge to get the lower action it allows. Thoughts? (On tonal effects of this lower action, if any.)

I will say that I got very little sense that that was a fretless bass.

As for the action/tone thing, mwah is obtained two ways ;

1. Low action that increases the resonant contact of a string with a longer run of wooden fingerboard; or
2. High action whereby the mwah is induced by force on the strings.

I tend toward the latter mainly because I learned fretless on double bass and my action there is about 1/4" at the octave. So, in my world, you can never play too hard. Well, to a point. On nylon tapewounds playing too hard sounds just awful.

FretlessOnly wrote:I will say that I got very little sense that that was a fretless bass.

Good to know. I actually kind of want to walk a tightrope and not distract people's ears by sounding "too fretless", but at the same time keeping a little of the character.

Interesting - I don't feel like I get a very fretless sound much of the time. I am what I am, I suppose. The main reason I play fretless is not to get a fretless sound, but rather, to avoid those confounded annoying frets. But I don't try "not to sound too fretless," I just play and whatever comes out comes out. After 30 years of working on technique and all that, from here on out, I'm just playing whatever comes out. I try not to think too much about it when playing despite the amount of potentially useless information I spout off about here. I spent way too much time thinking about it in years passed.

I do play fretted guitar on occasion, and frets come in a bit handy there. Still, my glissentar is fretless and I play chords on that too.

Perfect tone from my perspective - the "organic" woody feel of the fretless is there both in the native tone of the bass and with the way you play the line - there is that great fretless slur in some of your transitions.

Gary Willis taught me about playing with a softer touch, you a fatter tone and more control of dynamics. This may help with your bleeding fingers, too.

Joshua, I don't think the tone is too bright or zingy. However, I do think you'd get a killer tone if you added in more bass frequecies by way of incorporating maybe 50% of the neck pickup's output to give a little sonic depth, and also dial in a little more bass on the Ashdown amp. You may want to reduce a little bit of low mid (300~600 Hz) to make room for the vocal since the vocal melody and your singer's singing are mostly in the low mid range.

Actually, the acoustics character of your rehearsal room also plays quite a part on your sound. Was the room pretty live with hard reflecting walls or deadened with foams and fibrous wool? The former makes things sound bright while the latter absorbs frequencies above 500 Hz.

Also, let's not forget the "proximity effect" of microphones (especially condenser mics), i.e., you get more lows as the mic gets closer to the amp. How far was your Zoom H4 away from your amp when it was recorded? You'll probably want even more highs and mids once you get into the studio and track your bass part with a mic placed just a few inches from the speaker/cab. As a rule of thumb, aim the mic at the center of the speaker cone if you want brightness, and towards the edge of the cone if you want some mud.

Just my humble 2 cents!

jps wrote:Gary Willis taught me about playing with a softer touch, you a fatter tone and more control of dynamics. This may help with your bleeding fingers, too.

I read that in his book. It's why I prefer higher gauge strings relative to the same core/wrap, for the extra tension--or at least that's in his book also. I don't practice soft touch as much as I should but will start. There are lots of songs that benefit from it when I do.

Paul, when I get home from work I'll take time to reply to your post. Thanks.

I played Gary's bass once after a Tribal Tech show while we were chatting. His action was so low the strings were coming out of the back of the neck! It was impossible for me to not get lots of fingerboard buzz.