Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

Hey guys - I've been told that denatured alcohol is the best thing to use for removing lead paint from the pickup cavities in my bass. I plan on tackling this daunting task with the alcohol and cotton balls, Q-tips, etc. My big question - is it safe to pour a little bit of alcohol into the cavities so that it's standing to let it soak? I'm wonder if this might make the scrubbing off process easier. Also, are there any other solvents better than denatured alcohol for this removal process? The bass I'm working on is my '68 4001 MG for what that matters.

Hey Mark - a couple of questions:

1. Why is there any paint in the cavities of a mapleglo? Is it a re-fin?

2. Why do you want to remove it? Lead risk to humans is generally confined to younger children who ingest it. Where it currently is located should pose no risk to anyone unless it is peeling off while you're doing gigs at a day care center.

A couple of points:

1. I would not expect ethanol to remove paint. You'd likely need something that's much more toxic like a trichloroethylene/isopropanol mixture (good old fashioned paint stripper). TCE is quite toxic via inhalation, dermal absorption or ingestion. You may not even be able to find TCE-based paint remover anymore because of this. Other solvents can be used; many of these are quite toxic as well.

2. Once you remove the lead paint, whatever materials you used to remove it are now considered to be hazardous waste under the Resource Recovery and Conservation Act (RCRA) and must be disposed of in accordance with applicable regulations. I know this sounds nit-picky considering the scope of the "waste" you'd be generating, but technically, once a hazardous material is no longer being used in the manner in which it was intended (in this case as paint), it is subject to the provisions of RCRA. To take this semi-absurd position of mine a bit further, you could demonstrate that the lead is not leachable by having a sample of the waste analyzed via a Toxicity Charateristic Leaching Procedure (TCLP). If it passed, the waste would be considered non-hazardous. Cost: probably about $300; it's been a while since I've had one done.

I guess my point is: why not just leave it as is?

John, corporate lawyer or government?

Sorry.... couldn't resist.

Organic chemist/environmental scientist/human health risk assessor.

I have a large hat rack.

Allgier - Right? HA! But seriously, Martin's reply is just the thorough insight I was hoping for.

So here's the A to your Q:

The bass has it's original 'Mapleglo' finish. The lead paint was added in the PU cavities along with copper backing to the PG by the previous owner to add an extra layer of grounding to completely eliminate buzz. However, I've had no grounding or serious buzzing issues with my Ricks that don't have the lead paint & copper backed PG, so all this carp on my '68 is really unnecessary in my mind. I'm not worried about the lead paint for health concerns. Matter of fact, I'm impervious to most hazardous substances. It's not uncommon for me to sprinkle lead flakes on my cereal in the morning just to keep my constitution in check. My motive for removal - I'd like to actually see the inside of the cavity and check out any writing in there - like the '4001-DX' - 'Lincoln Slept Here' or whatever else I might find. Plus, I just like the idea of getting the bass back to stock as much as possible. I've always felt that all the additional lead paint and copper backing tainted it in a way. I've already peeled the copper backing off, so that's a done deal. Granted, I don't expect the end result of removing the paint to be the pristine original MG finish. I suspect that it may still be a little murky looking from the gray that's possibly permeated the wood.

I've succeeded in removing a small sample patch of the lead paint with the denatured alcohol and a Q-tip. It took a little time and scrubbing, but I know it can be done. I considered the "letting-it-soak" method to see if that might speed up the process. However, now that you mention paint stripper, there is a natural compound based paint stripper that I used before and may try on the bass. It's non-toxic and works wonders on walls.

(a sample here)

However, that stuff may be too thorough. I'd hate for it to eat through the finish and whatever writing may be in the cavity.

I'm not too concerned about the RCRA. However, I do care about the environment. So once the leftover hazardous waste makes it's way through my lower-GI with my Wheaties, I figure I can deposit this matter into an industrial-strength Hefty where it can be deposited into a land-fill for future life forms to feed upon (three-eyed fish and the like) once the bag is punctured by the other sharp, rusty refuse in the heap and spills into the Earth.

Environmental ethics aside, I would avoid the soak and wait method - you run the risk of over-doing it and impregnating the wood (of course, maybe you'll get another 4001 out of it as payback).

Also keep in mind that "natural" is not always good; strychnine and toadstool sandwiches are entirely natural.

If I were you, I'd see if I could find some older nail polish remover that is acetone-based (or pure acetone; even better). Newer nail polish remover is typically ethyl acetate-based and won't work as well.

Acetone is a low-toxicity solvent, but still use good ventilation. At high concentrations it can cause kidney and/or liver toxicity.

Try the acetone w/ the Q-tip method. Or perhaps the natural prodcut you linked to will work. But I'd avoid the soak method.

Good to know, John. I'll look into the acetone or acetone based nail-polish remover.

You're into Toad-Nine sandwiches, too? Aren't those the best? 'Toadies' we called 'em back in Portland.

OK - I got curious about what I could get done with the denatured alcohol, and started on the project. The denatured alcohol was pretty effective in breaking up the lead paint. Using a Q-tip (sorry - "cotton swabbed ear cleaning device." Don't want to appear as though I'm favoring one particular brand) and scrubbing LIGHTLY, a small patch about the size of a dime takes about 5-8 minutes. Here's how the process went:

The beginning - the coverage of the lead paint, mainly in the cavities, but also painted over some of the screw holes for making contact with the copper faced PG:





I started with one small section:



Put a piece of masking tape over the paint patch to draw an outline for cutting. You can see the dark hue of the paint through the tape:





The point of this is to block the unpainted areas from exposure to the alcohol and scrubbing to preserve the finish. After drawing the outline, I removed the tape, cut the outlined piece and placed it back on the bass.



Then scrubbed away the lead paint:





Once cleaned up, the finish under the paint is dulled a little bit, but I anticipated this to some degree after having lead paint adhered to it then removed with denatured alcohol. Here's the before and after:







The whole face finished:



Next I'll mask off the whole face except for the cavities & wire routing and go nuts with a toothbrush & the alcohol.

Nice work so far, Mark, and excellent documentation.

IMO the dulling you see could also simply be from the ethanol removing some of the glossy clear coat from that area. I'm thinking that you might be able to rebuff those areas and regain some shine.

Thanks Gary. I'll have to try giving it a good buff when it's done. Maybe try some Zymol or whatever that stuff is that folks here swear by for cleaning and removing scratches.

johnallg wrote:John, corporate lawyer or government?
:

I knew it wasn't corporate lawyer. I'm both a chemist and a lawyer, and my experience with corporate lawyers is that as soon as I start talking about chemistry their eyes glaze over.

Back to the issue at hand, that stuff in the cavity. How do you know it is lead paint? The typical lead pigment paint used on houses before the 1970's has lead in a different from that should provide no electrical shielding. Even metallic lead isn't that great a conductor compared with other available materials. Lead may be cheaper than copper or silver, but it would not work nearly as well as in this application. Today's shielding paints appear to contain copper, nickel, or silver. Was lead shielding paint once a commercial product?

Whatever the stuff is, you are doing a great job removing it. And I love that binding with the aged Mapleglo. Beautiful!

I suspect it's actually graphite paint. It's easy to make and would do the shielding job a lot easier than trying to make lead paint. Lead oxidizes so fast in powdered form (usually before you can make anything out of it) that it wouldn't conduct very well. I doubt you have anything hazardous to worry about during the removal job. I would be a bit careful though, about soaking end grain inside the routed area and near the top with solvent. If heavily soaked, end grain may carry the solvent an inch or more into the wood - right under the varnish. This can either swell the wood fibers. causing little buckles in the top surface or possibly soften the CV, depending what the solvent is. I might be tempted to continue your procedure down inside the cavity, but mostly scrape or sand off the grey stuff instead, when I got up within 1/4" or so of the top, just to help keep the solvent away from that area. My Pedulla has a similar paint (factory installed) inside the cavity.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I guess I'm not sure that it is actually lead paint or not. I've always just taken it on the word of the guy who sold me the bass, and others who have worked on my other basses with the stuff in the cavities. Then again, I could be flawed in how I'm remembering the details. I'll have to touch base with those who have worked on my basses and see what they say. To your point, Ted, it would make more sense if it was graphite. Lead or graphite, it's just an eyesore in my book! I'll probably proceed as planned with the denatured alcohol being careful not to use it excessively to the point that it would be standing in the cavity. Caution well heeded, Ted! Thanks.

I'm with Todd on it being a graphite based paint. Back in the 80s the place I worked at sprayed the inside of computer controlled test equipment enclosures with a conductive gray paint that looks like what you have there, Mark.

FretlessOnly wrote: Lead risk to humans is generally confined to younger children who ingest it.

Just as a side note on what is only peripherally related to this thread and admittedly not pertinent to the discussion but yet very much worth knowing: If you have lead paint on the walls, it is a health concern to anyone who spends time there breathing the air.