Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

Here's something I have a question about, and I believe you're the only one who can explain it to me best, Paul W.

What is a Nitrocellulose finish and why did Fender stop using it following the CBS sale in 1966? What are the contemporary AVRI reissues painted with? How does Nitro feel compared to a contemporary AVRI finish. Does Ric or Gretsch use nitro finishes? Have they ever used Nitro finishes in the 50s and '60s?

Grab a Gibson Les Paul or SG if you want to feel nitrocellulose laquer.

I'm no laquer expert so instead of saying things that are not true I'll skip that...

Nitrocellulose is comparatively worse for the environment than other options, and seeing as Fender was based out of California (who has the strictest air pollution laws in the country), explains why they aren't painted Nitro there today.

As for the CBS era, I can only assume it was a cost-cutting, mass-production benefit of using poly finishes (as were nearly all the CBS changes).

JakeK wrote:Here's something I have a question about, and I believe you're the only one who can explain it to me best, Paul W.

What is a Nitrocellulose finish and why did Fender stop using it following the CBS sale in 1966? What are the contemporary AVRI reissues painted with? How does Nitro feel compared to a contemporary AVRI finish. Does Ric or Gretsch use nitro finishes? Have they ever used Nitro finishes in the 50s and '60s?

Jake, this may answer some of your questions: http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html
Scroll down to "Lacquer: going, going, gone."

Fender switched because nitrocellulose wasn't being used to finish cars anymore and the writing was on the wall for a switch to acrylic lacquer, since their custom color paints were automotive formulas. The automotive industry switched away from nitrocellulose, not for any environmental reasons (we're talking 1957 as the beginning of this switchover!) but for issues of finish stability and longevity. The environmental stuff came later.

"Poly" means little in terms of paint finishes, although guitarists bandy it about as if it does. There are two types of "polys" in use to finish guitars, polyester and polyurethane, and another dozen or more in common use in the plastics industry, with perhaps hundreds of different formulas with "poly" as their first two syllables.

Fender did not switch directly to "poly" in '66, but continued to use DuPont acrylic lacquers for their custom color formulations. Today they use both polyester and polyurethane for different uses, and in different facilities. Nowadays there's a sensitivity to VOCs because of their contributions to photochemical smog, which was virtually unknown before 1940, when the Los Angeles basin first began to experience this condition.

Acetone can be used to thin nitrocellulose, as well as acrylic lacquer and polyester, and it's unregulated because it plays no part in the formation of smog in the atmosphere. It's a good diluent for polyester, but used in nitrocellulose or acrylic lacquer, it leads to blushing and poor film characteristics because of its high volatility. So, to thin nitrocellulose and acrylic lacquers, it's blended with other, less volatile, solvents like toluene, xylene, butyl acetate and butyl cellosolve. These increase its toxity and contribute to smog, so they're highly regulated. This is also true of polyurethane reducer, which has toluene and butyl acetate as major components, comprising more than half of the volume of this solvent. Toluene, incidentally, is perhaps the most toxic to humans, affecting their nervous, respiratory, and reproductive systems.

RIC used nitrocellulose until sometime in 1959, at which time they switched over to a high-quality polyurethane furniture varnish ("conversion varnish" for their clear coats, while continuing to use nitrocellulose and acrylic lacquers in color coats. For the last couple of years, RIC has been switching over to UV-cured polyester for its varnish coats while using acrylic lacquer for its color coats.

Fender is painting nitrocellulose in limited quantities on their AVRI guitars and some custom-shop instruments, including some of the American-made Gretsch models. My own AVRI Jag is nitrocellulose topcoated, whereas all of my CIJ and MIJ and my one MIM Fender are all polyester topcoated. My Japanese Gretsches are urethane varnished while the Korean ones are polyester. Ironic, since lacquer originated in the Far East!

UV-cured polyester is currently the topcoat of choice for many American electric guitar manufacturers, as it's not highly regulated, easy to apply and tough as nails.

How does it feel? Depends upon age. I've always loved the look and feel of nitrocellulose, but there's a maintenance element that's not required with polyurethanes or polyesters. Urethane varnish has a very nice soft feel to it as well. Polyester feels almost like glass and takes some getting used to. The older and more weathered any finish gets, the nicer its feel, so it's always a trade-off between feel and appearance.

I've never been a big fan of acrylic lacquer as a topcoat, although that's what it was formulated for--as a labor-saver for the auto industry. It led to the "zombie shine" weird semi-gloss that most cars had through the sixties and seventies, which looked OK from afar but depended upon waxes and glazes for most of its shine.

Thanks for the reply, Paul. While my AVRI '62 Strat is coated with polyester, the Thin Skins available at Dave's Guitars are Nitro?

Thin skin is their code for nitrocellulose. But how much this current nitro has in common with the nitrocellulose finishes of yore, is anyone's guess.

It should be noted that the Fender factory in Corona has an "afterburner" installed, which allows them to spray virtually whatever they want (regardless of regulations).

jingle_jangle wrote:RIC used nitrocellulose until sometime in 1959, at which time they switched over to a high-quality polyurethane furniture varnish ("conversion varnish" for their clear coats, while continuing to use nitrocellulose and acrylic lacquers in color coats. For the last couple of years, RIC has been switching over to UV-cured polyester for its varnish coats while using acrylic lacquer for its color coats.

Paul, I may be wrong but I believe that John Hall has posted that Nitro was used until June of '58. Will have to search for the post.

RIC_FACTORY wrote:It should be noted that the Fender factory in Corona has an "afterburner" installed, which allows them to spray virtually whatever they want (regardless of regulations).

I guess they clear the room and hit the big red button?

JakeK wrote:Thanks for the reply, Paul. While my AVRI '62 Strat is coated with polyester, the Thin Skins available at Dave's Guitars are Nitro?

Your guitar should be nitro.

I think nitro's my favorite finish. It has a kind of "tacky", warm feel to it. In contrast, poly is very glasslike.

Agreed, Dan.

Jwilli, you're probably correct. I've never discussed this with JH, and am only repeating what I've gotten from other sources.

Jake, I was a bit confused by your comment re: your AVRI's being polyester, but am not up to speed on Fender finish variations. I will admit that I hadn't heard of this, though. I suspect that all of the AVRIs are nitrocellulose, though, as I can't find any references to polyester online.

IIRC, what I have read is that the AVRI Fenders are poly(fill in the rest) with a very thin layer of nitro on top of it, primarily so that Fender can say the finish is nitro.

FWIW, Fender buys its "nitro" from the company that swallowed Lawrence-McFadden last year, Seagrave Coatings. It should also be noted that Fender buys a lot of product (although I don't know what exactly) from Simtec, which is probably the biggest supplier of polyester coatings to the entire guitar industry...