Is this an original? 1964 rose morris. $?

[k43rover]

Not true. We made many direct shipments to Rose Morris Pty in Australia.

That would seem to confirm that the Smith information on exports is missing a lot of data (which would be consistent with his significantly under reported production totals) as the only direct shipment to Rose Morris Australia which he mentions is 25 model 1998 guitars in 1966. If that's so, the good news is that there may be a lot more RoMo f-hole guitars than we thought waiting to be discovered Down Under!!! However, to Glen's earlier point, I guess it could also simply mean that Rose Morris Pty imported additional standard US market slash hole models after the Rickenbacker trading relationship with Rose Morris in the UK came to end... Or could it also be that for some of the quoted UK Rose Morris export numbers for 1964 to 1967, Smith has mistakenly combined UK and Australian shipments.....

[johnhall]

Part of the confusion lies in the fact that in that era, we consisted to two entirely separate entities. One company was a distributor and the other was the manufacturer, done for tax reasons. Similarly, Ford Manufacturing made cars but Ford Sales sold them.

However, international sales were made from both companies. As I understand the application of excise taxes at that time, bespoke goods were usually sold by the manufacturer, while standard or inventoried goods were sold by the sales company.

Richard Smith, through no fault of his, had access to only SOME of the records of only ONE company, which muddled his count for goods shipped overseas. Also, the two companies had entirely different fiscal years which meant the records were stored differently.

[jdogric12]

If that's so, the good news is that there may be a lot more RoMo f-hole guitars than we thought waiting to be discovered Down Under!!!

Unless you own one, then it's BAD news!

[k43rover]

If that's so, the good news is that there may be a lot more RoMo f-hole guitars than we thought waiting to be discovered Down Under!!!

Unless you own one, then it's BAD news!

As I have a dog in that fight, I can completely empathise.....but still, for the common good, I'd be delighted to see plenty more of these beautiful guitars turn up. As far as the Autumnglo guitars from 1966 are concerned, it'd be great to think that at least one of the 25 model 1999 bass guitars shipped to the UK has survived and will one day show up. I'm hoping that day will come soon and we can all enjoy some pics..

[jwilli]

I agree with Collin.

I agree with Collin too, but disagree with John ...............(yawn)

Why you, I oughtta......(zzzzz).

[chai-man]

I noticed a comment about certain Rose Morris guitars being shipping to the UK only. It's not correct because all Rose Morris guitars were shipped from CA to the UK only. From there, they were distributed to various countries in Europe and the daughter company, Rose Music here in Australia.

Not true. We made many direct shipments to Rose Morris Pty in Australia.

I don't know the exact nature of the relationship between the companies but our files are filled with direct correspondence between ourselves and the Australian managers. My guess is that it was some form of joint venture rather than a subsidiary.

We still have all of the original orders invoices, customs documents, and various communications- and it's all in entirely separate files from similar business in that era with Rose Morris in the U.K. My dad even went down there to call on them in person about 1965.

As I am now NZL-based, I am interested as to whether Ric shipped also shipped RoMOs in the 1960s to the other side of the Tasman as well. I have encountered two vintage RoMOs here, but they could easily have been individually imported, probably from Aus or the UK)

[collin]

I noticed a comment about certain Rose Morris guitars being shipping to the UK only. It's not correct because all Rose Morris guitars were shipped from CA to the UK only. From there, they were distributed to various countries in Europe and the daughter company, Rose Music here in Australia.

Not true. We made many direct shipments to Rose Morris Pty in Australia.

I don't know the exact nature of the relationship between the companies but our files are filled with direct correspondence between ourselves and the Australian managers. My guess is that it was some form of joint venture rather than a subsidiary.

We still have all of the original orders invoices, customs documents, and various communications- and it's all in entirely separate files from similar business in that era with Rose Morris in the U.K. My dad even went down there to call on them in person about 1965.

As I am now NZL-based, I am interested as to whether Ric shipped also shipped RoMOs in the 1960s to the other side of the Tasman as well. I have encountered two vintage RoMOs here, but they could easily have been individually imported, probably from Aus or the UK)

+1

I'm interested in hearing about the Canadian side of the RM deal too. Very interesting..

[glen_l]

Yes, this is very interesting. Thanks to all who have been contributing on this thread. We have some very good points coming out here

[k43rover]

I'm interested in hearing about the Canadian side of the RM deal too. Very interesting..

Here's a pic of the back of the headstock of a '60's Canadian 335S (i.e. same spec as a RoMo 1997). I don't know whether the sticker (Hall Fairfield, Music Centre, 728 Fort Street, Victoria B.C.) dates from the '60's but judging by the overall mint condition of the guitar it could be the original retail sticker. I googled the address but nothing much came up (the address now comes up as a barber's shop!)...anyone in Canada know more about the history of this retailer?

[collin]

Appears to be just a dealer decal. I've seen a few vintage guitars with dealer decals, which is always a cool part of the history.

I'm curious to know about the actual Rose Morris distribution deal in Canada, as I understand there was one, albeit smaller than the UK and AU.

[k43rover]

I'm curious to know about the actual Rose Morris distribution deal in Canada, as I understand there was one, albeit smaller than the UK and AU.

That's interesting Collin. I can only recall reading about "Rose Morris" having a direct trading presence in the UK and Australia. The Smith book makes reference to shipments to Rose Morris in those territories but for Canada seems to mention just the one shipment to Barabash Music Corporation. Have you seen info quoted elsewhere about a "Rose Morris" business importing guitars into Canada?

[johnhall]

Canada, as today, is considered home territory and there's never been a Canadian distributor.

Barabash was one of many Canadian dealers over the years. The certainly were active in the early sixties but so were others including Long and McQuade.

[k43rover]

Canada, as today, is considered home territory and there's never been a Canadian distributor.

Barabash was one of many Canadian dealers over the years. The certainly were active in the early sixties but so were others including Long and McQuade.

Thanks for that clarification John.

I've often wondered whether Richard Smith ever came back to you over the years seeking to do an update to his book. I remember buying that book when it was first imported into the UK (which must have been late '80's). I found it by chance in a book store in London's Charing Cross Road after I'd spent a Saturday morning gazing at new Rickenbackers for sale in Denmark Street (just across the road)...at that time I could just about afford the book, but certainly not the guitars I'd been ogling!! Although I've bought all the subsequent books on Rickenbacker, I still prefer Smith's work and I regularly dip back into it. Would be great to see an updated/expanded edition with the production numbers and other errors corrected.

[johnhall]

Smith was quite dissatisfied by the publisher of his book and I can understand why he doesn't want to do an update. I also think his attentions have turned elsewhere, more in the world of curating than writing.

I have also always hoped the Rittor book might we redone and issued in English but due to some quirks in the Japanese copyright laws, that also doesn't seem to be in the cards.

What I'd love to see Andy Babiuk or Brian Kehew or Matthew Hill do an authoritative book that's more comprehensive than anything to date.

At one time I thought I'd also like to do one but I've gotten sick of people telling me how things REALLY were . . . even though I was there and they weren't. I have much better things to contemplate for retirement than any type of debate. That doesn't mean I wouldn't cooperate with or assist a writer though . . .

[k43rover]

What I'd love to see Andy Babiuk or Brian Kehew or Matthew Hill do an authoritative book that's more comprehensive than anything to date.

I have the Beatles Gear book by Babiuk and that is excellent work. My favourite music related book is Vox Amplifiers The JMI Years by Jim Elyea. That is truly a weighty tome in every sense of the expression. The quality of the research for that book and the detailed product and artist photographs are just magnificent. I would say a similar labour of love is absolutely what the Rickenbacker brand deserves.