Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

Ok...questionable title for post, but since I need to replace the butchered nut on my 3000, got me to surfing E-bay just for fun, and turned up this concept:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AxeMasters-SLOT ... 593wt_1398

So what do folks think about the claim that the slot between the notches could help tone? Anybody played with these types before??

Also amazing that folks are selling the original Ric replacement nuts for such crazy money!

Well, I don't know about their theory. What I learned in my college course on the physics of acoustics is that for the most perfect string vibration, the ends of the strings should be held as solidly as possible, otherwise energy will be dissipated into the end points (nut & bridge).

Of course, since the substrate to which the nut and bridge are attached is not perfectly rigid, this will happen anyway. And just what that substrate is (type of wood, shape, etc.) will affect the resonance and harmonics and thus the tone one gets from the vibrating string.

So, one would think that coupling the string vibrations to the body as solidly as possible would get the best sustain and tone (tone based on the guitar structure), and that making a more "floppy" nut by decreasing it's structural strength with slots would detract from this. Of course, there may be some value in decoupling the individual strings from one another, and might change the tone a bit.

Now, all of that is from an acoustical physics course I took well over 35 years ago, and I really don't remember a lot of it so I may be way off target.

But then, you have to really get down to the bottom line when it comes to the nut. Back in the mid '70s it was all the rage to put brass nuts on guitars and basses. I put one on my 4001 and really couldn't tell much difference. And then you need to consider that most of the time, you have your finger pushing down on the string at some fret so the vibrations don't even get to the nut. In other words, if there's any effect at all, it's only with open strings.

At least that was my experience...

RickyBubba wrote:So what do folks think about the claim that the slot between the notches could help tone?

Sounds like $22 BS. As long as the brass is still all one piece along the bottom, how would the vibrations not transfer throughout it? And even if they were four separate little brass nuts, they'd be mounted so close that the wood underneath would transfer the vibrations between them anyway...right? And strings sympathetically vibrate, so even if you sonically separated all contact points for each string (nut, tailpiece, saddles), the strings would still influence each other, just through that vibration...regardless of how many slots you cut into the nut. The fact that everything is attached to more-or-less one piece of wood is a huge part of what makes the bass sound like it does to begin with.

And maybe it's just my average hearing, but it always seemed you'd need some sort of bionic ears to tell the difference, if any, between this and a nut made of any other material. Or between an aluminum bridge and a brass one. Or any of these questionable types of "sonic upgrades." The bass, so long as the body and pickups don't change, will sound 99% the same as it always did no matter what material the nut or the tuners or the saddles are actually made of. Hell, the strings have at least as much to do with the sound as anything, if not more. And they're meant to be replaced!

Now I'm sure someone will come in here and claim adding a bone nut changed everything for them! But I still wouldn't buy it...

RickyBubba wrote:So what do folks think about the claim that the slot between the notches could help tone?

You're playing an electric bass. String vibrations are being transmitted through magnetic pickups, passed through volume and tone control wiring, down your guitar cable, (into your effects loop) into your amp where it is further distorted and amplified. There are a million and one things that would alter your tone during that process before notches on the nut would start to matter.

cjj wrote:Well, I don't know about their theory. What I learned in my college course on the physics of acoustics is that for the most perfect string vibration, the ends of the strings should be held as solidly as possible, otherwise energy will be dissipated into the end points (nut & bridge).

+1. This is how it was taught to me in undergrad a few years ago so the theory hasn't changed much.

The headstock angle/string retainer and proper stringing method probably have a bigger effect on sustain that the nut itself if the nut is sufficiently hard, and I can't think of a nut I have run across that wasn't sufficiently hard (between bakelite, ebony, delrin, deer antler, and bone). Sonic differences with them, in my experience, are definitely negligible but you can always trick yourself into thinking you hear something if you try hard enough. I would say the open note tone is the only thing that I can really be certain has changed.

Considering many people assert that certain body woods are difficult to distinguish sonically in an electric bass, I can't say nut material is a huge deciding factor in tone either. But I have been really pleased, if nothing else, with the aesthetic effect of several different nut replacements on my basses. I wouldn't like the look of brass.

Oddly enough, I'm actually thinking of putting a brass nut on my 4004Cjj. Not for any sort of tonal superiority though. Just because I think it would look nice being gold plated to match the rest of the gold hardware...

I've never been a fan of brass nuts... probably because they became an "in" thing to do in the mid to late 70's if you wanted to pimp out your Fender bass, and I thought the whole "pimp your Fender" thing was lame. (E.g., having your name engraved on your brass neck plate. Please.) The only "advantage" of a brass nut that's ever made any sense to me is durability. But since I've never broken a bass nut in over 40 years of playing.... why bother. Bone and the other materials are easier to work.

Anyone who says they can hear the difference, particularly in the context of ensemble playing, is smoking something.

Not that I have an opinion...

P.S.: need I add that, IMHO, the concept behind the Axemasters slotted nut is pure nonsense?!

cjj wrote:Oddly enough, I'm actually thinking of putting a brass nut on my 4004Cjj. Not for any sort of tonal superiority though. Just because I think it would look nice being gold plated to match the rest of the gold hardware...

Yeah, I can picture that looking quite nice. I tend to go with nuts that "match" my basses... the white bone nut on my 4003 MG that I just sold, the ebony nut on my BT 4001FL, the antler nut (very grainy-looking) jutted up against the grainy fingerboard of my 4003FL.

What about solid brass nuts and acoustic guitar endpins? Discuss.

All the common sense I expected....release the Kracken.....

Even if it did make a differnece, I don't play well enough anyhow!

How about this! -- You can keep your picks in the little slots! Cool!

kennyhowes wrote:What about solid brass nuts and acoustic guitar endpins? Discuss.

Well still, as far as the nut goes, it's only doing something with an open string. The rest of the time, there's a fret and/or your finger to stop the vibrations before they get to the nut.

As for endpins, you mean the pins that anchor the end of the string after the bridge? Here again, the bridge is supposed to be where the vibrations stop. Yeah, some gets transferred to the wood and a tiny bit will go beyond and into the anchor points, but I'd think that any sort of tonal changes you'd here there with brass vs. whatever would be due to "smokin' sump'n" as well...

cjj wrote:

kennyhowes wrote:What about solid brass nuts and acoustic guitar endpins? Discuss.

Well still, as far as the nut goes, it's only doing something with an open string. The rest of the time, there's a fret and/or your finger to stop the vibrations before they get to the nut.

Makes sense. So they were all the rage as an aftermarket upgrade in the '70s just for open string sounds?

cjj wrote:As for endpins, you mean the pins that anchor the end of the string after the bridge? Here again, the bridge is supposed to be where the vibrations stop. Yeah, some gets transferred to the wood and a tiny bit will go beyond and into the anchor points, but I'd think that any sort of tonal changes you'd here there with brass vs. whatever would be due to "smokin' sump'n" as well...

I misspoke, I meant a brass saddle.

I had a replacement brass nut on a vintage Fender bass from the 70's (it came to me that way). I don't believe it did a single thing to enhance tone, sustain etc.

kennyhowes wrote:

cjj wrote:

kennyhowes wrote:What about solid brass nuts and acoustic guitar endpins? Discuss.

Well still, as far as the nut goes, it's only doing something with an open string. The rest of the time, there's a fret and/or your finger to stop the vibrations before they get to the nut.

Makes sense. So they were all the rage as an aftermarket upgrade in the '70s just for open string sounds?

cjj wrote:As for endpins, you mean the pins that anchor the end of the string after the bridge? Here again, the bridge is supposed to be where the vibrations stop. Yeah, some gets transferred to the wood and a tiny bit will go beyond and into the anchor points, but I'd think that any sort of tonal changes you'd here there with brass vs. whatever would be due to "smokin' sump'n" as well...

I misspoke, I meant a brass saddle.

Well, then, as now, there was a lot of misunderstanding about how a lot of technical things work and all manner of magical abilities were given to things, including brass nuts. I don't remember all of the details, but I'm sure it was supposed to increase sustain and give a brighter tone (with there being no mention that is would only affect open strings). I worked in a machine shop at the time and made one out of some scrap brass so I didn't actually ever buy one. Perhaps I didn't have the same results because I didn't use the right sort of magical brass alloy.

As for saddles, I suppose brass might be slightly different than non-metal materials and might provide a bit better coupling of the strings to the body. But again, the materials generally used aren't particularly soft and I'd think the effect would be minimal. The difference between brass, aluminum, zinc, etc. would be even less noticeable...