Hi Gain to Toaster Conversion

skelt101 · Post by **skelt101** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:00 am

Hi folks,
I posted this topic on the Rickenbacker forum and didn't get much response, with the exception of iiipopes who urged me to take a different direction. So I decided to give it a try here. Anyway, I have a 1997 Rose Morris Reissue with two low output toasters (in the 6k ohm range). I think the bridge can be a little too quiet and thin sounding, so I'm considering installing a Hi-Gain. I know that I'd like to convert it to a toaster top. My first question is: if I want to convert the adjustable poles to alnico rods, is there enough bobbin to enlarge the holes to .250" and not damage the coil? If I recall correctly, the poles on the bridge position Hi-Gain have a wider spacing than the neck position... That being the case, would a neck position Hi-Gain be a better candidate? Also, where would be a good place to purchase the alnico rods? Thanks for any help guys!

jps · Post by **jps** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:46 am

Why don't you just find someone to swap your scatterwound toasters with hot toasters?

skelt101 · Post by **skelt101** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:46 am

jps wrote:Why don't you just find someone to swap your scatterwound toasters with hot toasters?

I was hoping to keep the scatterwound just in case I don't get along with the hotter pickup. Also, it seems the hotter toasters are somewhat hard to come by these days...

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:30 pm

I repeat what I said on the other forum:

1) replace the stock lighter wound bridge toaster with a current 7.4 kohm toaster, because I believe you will notice a significant difference with the current toasters having @ 15% more wire on it compared to your current bridge position toaster, and then, and only then, if that is still not hot enough,

2) keep on the lookout for a 12 kohm toaster which were made for a few years a couple of decades ago.

Otherwise, you risk ruining a pickup, devaluing your guitar, etc.

You may not like the way your current toaster sounds in the bridge position, but there are many folks out there who would love to have one to restore a late '50's-to-early 60's instrument. So hang on to what you have, as it is worth more than you think it is.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:41 pm

I agree with iiipopes. The current 7.4 kohm toaster sounds exactly like what you are looking for. If the 7.4 doesn't rock your world, some people have simply replaced the hi gain's polepiece bolts with flat heads, put a toaster cover on it and called it a day. No major surgery required.

k43rover · Post by **k43rover** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:00 pm

Clint wrote: The current 7.4 kohm toaster sounds exactly like what you are looking for.

Is this the same spec as the ones in the 360/12C63?

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:12 pm

As far as I know, the 7.4 scatterwound is the only toaster RIC currently offers. But, oddly the RIC Boutique states that it is not compatable with the neck position on a 360/12C63. Why? I have no idea.

jps · Post by **jps** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:17 pm

Clint wrote:As far as I know, the 7.4 scatterwound is the only toaster RIC currently offers. But, oddly the RIC Boutique states that it is not compatable with the neck position on a 360/12C63. Why? I have no idea.

Does the C63 use a short pole toaster in the neck position? If so, there is no routing in the body for the standard long pole toaster.

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:18 pm

jps wrote:
Clint wrote:As far as I know, the 7.4 scatterwound is the only toaster RIC currently offers. But, oddly the RIC Boutique states that it is not compatable with the neck position on a 360/12C63. Why? I have no idea.
Does the C63 use a short pole toaster in the neck position? If so, there is no routing in the body for the standard long pole toaster.

That is correct; it's wound in the 3-4k range. Same pickups that the 325c58 used. I had one in the neck position of my '68 330.

jps · Post by **jps** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:42 pm

That's what I thought. The old 4005WB and my current '67 330 both have short pole toasters in the neck position and no routing.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:00 pm

Man John, you always know your sh...er..stuff. SAVE SUZI

skelt101 · Post by **skelt101** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:03 pm

iiipopes wrote:I repeat what I said on the other forum:

1) replace the stock lighter wound bridge toaster with a current 7.4 kohm toaster, because I believe you will notice a significant difference with the current toasters having @ 15% more wire on it compared to your current bridge position toaster, and then, and only then, if that is still not hot enough,

2) keep on the lookout for a 12 kohm toaster which were made for a few years a couple of decades ago.

Otherwise, you risk ruining a pickup, devaluing your guitar, etc.

You may not like the way your current toaster sounds in the bridge position, but there are many folks out there who would love to have one to restore a late '50's-to-early 60's instrument. So hang on to what you have, as it is worth more than you think it is.

Thank you, sir. Your suggestions are probably the way to go. I think what I might do is "borrow" the 7.4k ohm neck toaster from my 660/12 and swap it with the 6K ohm bridge toaster in the 1997, providing the leads on both will reach where they need to go. That way I don't need to buy anything!

From what I've read, the C63 does use a short pole toaster for the neck position. Since RIC does not offer these for sale, one would have to find a used unit, or modify a 7.4k version. This would involve removing some wire from the coil, trimming/replacing the alnico rods and perhaps installing a new backing plate, e.g. from Winfield Vintage.

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:18 pm

skelt101 wrote:Since RIC does not offer these for sale

Call Chris at POTR. You might get lucky. That's where I got mine.

FWIW, I find the 7.4k Toaster at the bridge too weak/thin/brittle/etc. for my taste. I have been much happier with a Higain in the bridge position of my '68 330. With a Toaster cover on it, of course. My other 3 guitars all have big fat full-sounding bridge pickups and I hated that the Rick couldn't compete. The Higain has been great.

8mileshigher · Post by **8mileshigher** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:41 pm

Very interesting thread ....

iiipopes · Post by **iiipopes** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:02 pm

skelt101 wrote:I think what I might do is "borrow" the 7.4k ohm neck toaster from my 660/12 and swap it with the 6K ohm bridge toaster in the 1997, providing the leads on both will reach where they need to go. That way I don't need to buy anything!

From what I've read, the C63 does use a short pole toaster for the neck position. Since RIC does not offer these for sale, one would have to find a used unit, or modify a 7.4k version. This would involve removing some wire from the coil, trimming/replacing the alnico rods and perhaps installing a new backing plate, e.g. from Winfield Vintage.

Regarding swapping pickups, that is a relatively easy thing to do, and it is the best way to see if that gives you enough more drive in the bridge position without spending a significant amount of money. I did the same thing with the highgains in my 320 and 360-12WB FG ckbd, swapping out and around until I got the balance I was looking for, so obviously I think this is a good idea before doing something that would cost more time and money.

Regarding the short pole toasters, however, the only real difference is the length of the magnet, with the secondary difference is that at the time the short pole toasters were first made, they were wound at the time a little lighter in general. This might have a slight effect on the transient response (smoother) in the neck position, but it is not enough to warrant rebuilding a pickup. Lowering the pickup by screwing down the adjustment screws a couple of turns, lowering the level a bit with the 5th knob, and dropping the mids on the amp a half number do about the same thing.

I read with interest the comments above about compatability issues of the toasters, between the lighter wound versions on the '58 and the '63, as compared to the "standard" 7.4's. If the coils are wound the same direction and have the magnets seated the same polarity alignment, they are "in phase" with each other, both electrically and magnetically, so the only issue would be volume or tonal variations that might seem too far apart to some folks. Moreover, the lighter wound toaster will have very low impedance, and may not blend well with the 7.4 in that way, as the resulting tonal balance of both pickups together might tend to whang. But it never hurts to try and see.

Also note the spectrum of perspective how that some of us think that a toaster has more drive, while others think the 7.4 toaster is too shallow or thin. Vive la difference! I tried to source my comments from the perspective of comparing a 7.4 kohm toaster compared to the lighter wound version, instead of coming at it from the other side of comparing a 7.4 kohm toaster to a high gain or HB.

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