Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Off Topic discussion forum

Moderators: ajish4, cjj

User avatar
walker
Advanced Member
Posts: 2908
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:03 am
Contact:

Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Post by walker »

I thought long and hard about the ethics involved with "outing" someone for doing shoddy work on my guitars. There's: how that affects their reputation to think about vs giving the fair heads-up to your friends who have valuable guitars and would probably prefer to keep them out of the hands of the incompetent. In the end, the interests of the many have won out over the interests of this one particular guy.

I sent my 1964 RM 1999 bass to Chip Little to take care of a list of things I wanted done to restore the bass. Upon getting the bass back, I could not be sorrier that I picked him to do the job. ~AND~ paid him to do it. The bass came back with more issues than it had when I sent it to him.

First, and in all fairness, Chip did a good job correcting the forward bend to the headstock. It's at a good angle and so far has held strong and true. After correcting the bend, he installed carbon fiber rods on either side of the truss rod cavity and covered the routes with a well-suited layer of veneer. He also helped the neck's back-bow via the same method - carbon rods under the fretboard.

But that's where the good news ends. The following laundry list is the outline of all the stuff he either messed up or failed to correct.

1. The veneer job he did on the headstock was incredibly sloppy. He didn't even bother to trim back the ⅛" of overhang into the cavity, and leftover glue had dripped down and dried. Not only that, there was a ¼" by ¼" chunk of veneer folded over into the cavity that he didn't even bother to trim off. I wish I had taken a picture of that mess, but my first instinct was "Clean up this mess!" It took me a mere 15 minutes to trim off the excess veneer, clean out the excess glue, and sand the edge smooth. Something a competent luthier would have done.

2. Along with straightening the neck, he did a refret… using the wrong sized frets. In the MANY conversations we had about this project, I made it very clear that the overall goal was to get the bass back to 1964 spec's. So, the fact that he put in jumbo sized frets on a '64 RM is just baffling to me - one of the many signs that this guy's head just isn't in the game. HE SAW the size of the ones he removed… ???

3. He put a super-thick glossy layer of finish on the fretboard which cracked over several of the dot inlays. Again, see: period correct failure.

4. He did a real half-*** job putting the fretboard back on the neck - glue and gaps everywhere along the seam, cut marks as well. ~AND~ the fretboard is split from the neck between the nut and first fret. This might be fixable by injecting glue in the seam and clamping, but considering the fact that the whole fretboard is going to need to be pulled and reset, it's a moot point. But there it is for the record.

5. He was supposed to fill one of the missing tiny dots that are set into the E side of the fretboard. Over the phone, he talked about what a simple thing it was to do… simple enough I guess if you're not the least bit concerned with the new dot matching the old ones. The original dots are a greyish white, he used something with a bright orange-hued white color. AND - when I sent him the bass, only one was missing. He ended up replacing TWO for some reason. (How do you lose a freaking fretboard dot???) So now TWO don't match.

6. The fret job itself - done incredibly sloppy. There is damage to the fretboard wood all along the neck now - completely marred by chips and compression marks. The fret ends weren't even cut uniformly or crowned. The edge of the fretboard looks like someone smiling with broken teeth. It looked like a beginner's very first fret job attempt. Hopefully all the damage to the fretboard edges can be sanded out when a refret is done.

7. Somehow a bunch of superglue-fingerprints got all over the nameplate. I had to sand & buff all that out.

8. He wound the horseshoe pickup bobbin I gave him, but didn't even bother to solder the ground wire to a fish-eye washer and screw it to the bottom of the baseplate; he just wrapped the bare wire around a loose baseplate screw and left it at that. Subsequently, the D/G horseshoe magnet was flopping around loose.

9. He did a lousy job with the setup. For some reason the G string was buzzing like crazy. I finally discovered that he had the G-side of the mute cranked all the way up and the string was buzzing on it. :roll:

10. WITHOUT ASKING ME IF IT WAS OK FIRST, he replaced the original hand-cut bakelite nut with a brand new RIC issue nut. (period correct fail)

11. As above, he did the same thing with ALL the original PG, surround, and jack screws. (period correct fail) I sh*t bricks and let him know the err of his ways - fortunately, he still had the original hardware and sent it back to me.

12. And I guess this is the perfect icing for the cake - he also managed to damage the spine on the guitar case while it was in his care. Now it flops open about a foot further than it should.

I decided that I deserved to be refunded on AT LEAST the fretboard related part of the work since I'm going to have to pay someone else to do another refret with the correct size fret wire as well as reset the entire fretboard. Chip dodged my emails and calls for about two weeks, then finally called me back to discuss. Results there: he basically filled the air with lame excuse upon lame excuse for why he did his work so shabily, and avoided acknowledging any of his mistakes. Example: "I thought someone else was going to fix the veneer later." (Well, "he" sure did, but wouldn't have had to if Chip had completed the job himself.) Probably the biggest gem of an excuse re: using the wrong fretwire - "Aaaw heck. I've got TONS of vintage fretwire. Yeah, I don't even like using that jumbo gauge wire."

???????????

And since the question BEGS to be asked, I asked it:

"Then why didn't you USE the vintage fretwire?"

His infallible explanation: "Well heck - there's tons of stuff on that bass that isn't period correct." Mostly thanks to him. Baffling. Completely baffling.

So he basically used the opportunity of this discussion to try and talk his way out of refunding me the $175 - obviously more concerned with hanging onto that money than satisfying a VERY unsatisfied customer. And that's how it ends. Except that by now he's already lost WAY more than $175 in business and will probably continue to lose even more. Overall, Chip doesn't strike me as a particularly bright individual.

(photos to follow)
User avatar
kennyhowes
Veteran RRF member
Posts: 4913
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 1:03 am
Contact:

Re: Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Post by kennyhowes »

Dang!
User avatar
DriftSpace
Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Post by DriftSpace »

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience, Mark.
walker wrote:I know it's not considered good form to publicly criticize someone's work...
I don't think it's bad-form to discuss these things in a public forum after giving the craftsperson a chance to right the wrong; all you are doing is making the information available to other members, and potentially keeping people from having the same experience. If there is a "right" way to share this information: I think it's best to present photos (which you said you would), refer to details, and let the public judge for themselves without being specifically negative. If you have interpersonal exchanges to detail: it's difficult to share those without being subjective, so just airing them as you have is probably best. Photos will be a great addition to this thread.

A lot of "specialists" do a half-hearted job because they figure the consumer won't notice (i.e. your veneer/glue problem), won't know the difference, and/or will have no recourse. I had some roofers do my home a few years ago when I bought it, and when I told them they were doing a terrible job and it would not pass inspection, they said: "If you want us to do it right it's going to cost more money". Fortunately we live in an area where the inspectors really do a great job, and they told the roofer to come back and do it right, or face the penalty of the law.

There aren't inspectors for luthiers, so we consumers need to have no qualms about detailing our experiences with these people when things go south. It sounds like you gave Mr. Little a chance to make it right, and he kept dropping the ball, so others deserve to know. Hopefully the luthier will change his ways, and if he doesn't: you've at least helped some others know what could potentially happen if they hire Mr. Little.

People not speaking up, and not sharing their experience is exactly how these problems persist, and it's how lackluster craftspeople (or businesses) stay in-business. Even major corporations give people who tweet negative experiences incentives to remove their comments from public view; speaking-up is the first step to righting a wrong.

As for my recent experiences (one of which I think I have detailed here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=404857): I had a guitar sent to the Colfax Guitar Shop for a chip repair, and not only did they have to re-do it several times, but even the "final" result was (as Paul W. said) "amateurish." Previously, they had done a pretty stellar (though pricey) job setting-up my Telecaster, so I'm not going to fully write them off for future work. I probably should have raised a stink about the chip repair, but since I wasn't paying for it: it didn't seem to matter, and I was more concerned with sealing the wound --preventing further finish flaking -- than I was with the aesthetics.

I also have another project out at the moment that was proposed with an 8-week ETA; we have recently crossed the one-year mark, and I just had to send it back after waiting all that time for a host of issues. However, I am still hopeful that I won't have to share those details and photos; I feel -- in this particular instance -- that a lot of the hang-ups have been circumstantial. Even so: an 8-week project clearing the 1-year mark is pretty substantial, and I feel as though I've been moved to the back of the line several times, even after investing almost $3,000 in the project, and being pretty patient & understanding throughout.
walker wrote:In the end, the interests of the many have won out over the interests of this one particular guy.
Thanks for looking-out for the rest of us, and I'm sorry you had a bad experience. Don't feel bad; Mr. Little is a professional and an adult, so if he's done a bad job: he should be man enough to realize his error, professional enough to do what he can to make it right, and thereby improve himself (and preserve his reputation) for future endeavors. We don't need more craftspeople who are willing to do a half-hearted job just to cash-in ... in any industry.
User avatar
walker
Advanced Member
Posts: 2908
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:03 am
Contact:

Re: Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Post by walker »

Thanks for the supportive perspective, Sean. Glad you and others appreciate the heads-up. I know of two other people who are completely satisfied with Chip's work. I haven't seen those results myself, but I take it on faith that what they say is valid. Unfortunately, Chip seems to have fallen into the category of "willing to do a half-hearted job just to cash-in" as you say. (Incidentally: Nailed it!)

I've got more horror stories about the work of other "reputable" luthiers, but in the interest of not starting a big stupid witch hunt, I'll give it a rest for now. I'll follow up with photos of Chip's work, though, just to offer evidence on my claims. But if you Sean, or anybody else reading this thread have similar concerns with luthiers who have done seemingly careless work on your valued axe, by all means bring it on. I for one would like to know about it.

On the constructive side, I do personally recommend Jeremy at Rudy's music here in NYC. He's the guy I'll be taking my refret & reset job to.
User avatar
cjj
RRF Moderator
Posts: 10901
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Post by cjj »

This kind of info can be quite helpful, but it is definitely a tricky sort of subject in that it can easily turn into a bashing session. As long as people keep to facts and don't start making personal attacks, I think things should be fine.
I have NO idea what to do with those skinny stringed things... I'm just a bass player...
User avatar
walker
Advanced Member
Posts: 2908
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:03 am
Contact:

Re: Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Post by walker »

Yes, I definitely try to keep the criticism based on actual evidence, and offer it as "my results", leaving it open ended so that others who take it in can decide whether or not it's acceptable work or otherwise. Kind of hard not to be PO'd, though. RRRRRRRR!!!
User avatar
Grey
Advanced Member
Posts: 1659
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:10 pm

Re: Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Post by Grey »

It may not be "polite" to ask but i'm curious as to how much you were charged for the work you needed done on the instrument. That would greatly alter my opinion on this subject depending on how low or high it is.

I don't know who this "Chip" fellow is but i'd be interested in where you heard about him and what made you confident enough to give your business to him.
User avatar
walker
Advanced Member
Posts: 2908
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:03 am
Contact:

Re: Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Post by walker »

I'm not going to reveal the exact price tag on this whole job, but it was on the low side, which in this case lends support to the adage: "You get what you pay for." The charge on the neck work specifically was $175, which is all I was asking to be refunded. Chip squirmed his way out of agreeing to compensate me. But like I told him, pursuing that amount wouldn't be worth the time and additional money it would take. Total disclosure - he emailed photos showing the cracks and chips in the fretboard finish prior to sending, acknowledging the flaws there and offered a redo free of additional charge. But when I saw what it looked like, I knew that I just wanted to settle up and get the bass out of his hands ASAP.

Funny thing - when he was trying to sell me on what a great deal he gave me on his work, he reminded me that most fret jobs run around $350, which set me up for the perfect parry: "And that's looking like what I'm going to have to pay someone else to redo it now."

In the interest of equal time for those who've done great work for me, I HIGHLY recommend Chris Price who works out of Portland at 'The Twelfth Fret.' He did a STELLAR refret for me on my '79 4001 JG in 1982. The frets he used must be made from unobtainium, because after a good 30 years of play they show no wear and have never needed filing. (assuming that unobtainium is the hardest metal available in the known universe) He replaced the frets while keeping the original finish on - something I hear is NOT easy to do. The work is flawless. You'd never know he was there. He also did additional work on that same bass 20 years later - moving the tailpiece up about 2mm to better center the string position. I think all the guys at 12th Fret are top notch. Price runs a tight ship.

Jeremy @ Rudy's here in NYC is highly recommended, too. He's done great work on a few of my basses including my '68 4001. I wish I had given the RM to him, but I was swayed by the whole "Give your bass to so & so... he's a Rick expert!" whether it be Dale F, Paul W, Mark A, or Chip, who was personally recommended by a friend of mine who he's done work for, and was happy with the results. I've deduced that the "Rick Pro" tag doesn't really carry much water anymore.
User avatar
johnhall
RIC
Posts: 3926
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2000 11:17 am
Contact:

Re: Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Post by johnhall »

Grey wrote:I don't know who this "Chip" fellow is but i'd be interested in where you heard about him and what made you confident enough to give your business to him.
. . . aka Chip Little aka "Adam Swapp" aka "Winfield Restorations", former member here . . .

The part here that confuses me is the mention of carbon fiber and wood veneer alongside terms like "restoration" and "vintage accuracy".

Anyway, I see nothing here that a talented luthier couldn't have handled . . . but obviously for a price.
User avatar
walker
Advanced Member
Posts: 2908
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:03 am
Contact:

Re: Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Post by walker »

Just to clarify - the carbon fiber rods that run along each side of the truss rod cavity help keep the angle of the headstock at it's new angle so it doesn't bend back due to the possible influence of "wood memory". Under the veneer, it's an undetectable attribute of the restoration unless viewed by Xray or MRI. I was OK with this concept, and this is the one aspect of the work that turned out well. (minus the afore mentioned trimming I had to do to clean it up) I'm not sure which attribute of the bass overall that Chip was using to support his argument that it was "full of inaccuracies," but he knew that it was a work in progress, and the end goal was to get all non-spec elements corrected. He also knew that I would be continuing the work once I got it back from him. This was his lame excuse for not putting the correct fretwire on, which he claims that he's got in abundance and LOVES to use. And he himself contributed to the inaccuracies by swapping out the original nut and all body screws with new RIC issue. Can you figure his logic? I sure as hell can't.

Anyway - the result of the carbon/veneer combo:
DSCN5136(edit)Med.jpg
Headstock angle, before and after:
RM headstock A&B(Med).jpg
With string tension, the headstock now comes close to being arrow-straight, but still slightly back - much closer to spec than it was when it was pitched about 2 degrees forward.
User avatar
walker
Advanced Member
Posts: 2908
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:03 am
Contact:

Re: Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Post by walker »

johnhall wrote:I see nothing here that a talented luthier couldn't have handled . . . but obviously for a price.
That's the "beauty" of this situation. I wasn't out to find a "bargain basement deal." I sought the best person qualified, and Chip was the one recommended.
User avatar
walker
Advanced Member
Posts: 2908
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:03 am
Contact:

Re: Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Post by walker »

Photo gallery:

Frets 16-20, E side
DSCN5571Med.jpg
Frets 12-17, E side (Fortunately I never ripped my thumb open on the overhang on that 12th fret. And can you tell which dot inlay is the new one? You have to look REEEELLY hard!)
DSCN5575Med.jpg
Frets 6-11, E side (Note the nice gap stuffed with glue)
DSCN5578Med.jpg

Frets 20-16, G side
DSCN5587Med.jpg
Frets 13-10, G side
DSCN5584Med.jpg
Frets 7-4, G side
DSCN5583Med.jpg
I don't know how this rates to the fret work that others here have seen, but it's by far the worst job I've seen personally.
Last edited by walker on Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
walker
Advanced Member
Posts: 2908
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:03 am
Contact:

Re: Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Post by walker »

Tuna & Relish patty melt, anyone?
DSCN5103(edit)Med.jpg
User avatar
walker
Advanced Member
Posts: 2908
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:03 am
Contact:

Re: Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Post by walker »

Fretboard separation at the first fret & nut:
DSCN5593Med.jpg
HA! Look at that fret sticking up there. Boy, I tell ya...
DSCN5602Med.jpg
Last edited by walker on Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
walker
Advanced Member
Posts: 2908
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:03 am
Contact:

Re: Fair Warning: Luthiers/Repair Guy Reviews

Post by walker »

Cracked over the inlay on the right, murky and uneven overall, creased and dented along the fret on the left.
Fretwork prime.jpeg
Strange... why am I suddenly hungry for a Jumbo dog?
Post Reply

Return to “The Others: by CJ Johansson”