Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

Guys, I have a few questions about the binding bleed sometimes seen on early 70's Mapleglo instruments. What causes the "sweat staining"? Obviously a reaction between either the binding and adhesive or the adhesive or the wood or the breakdown of the binding? Why on only a small amount of instruments and why only Mapleglo??

How deep is the discoloration? Can it be removed without sanding or is the wood forever marred?

On the next few fotos there are cracks in the wood adjacent to the binding. It appears the wood has been greatly affected by the process going on here. Has anyone attempted to refinish an instrument with this damage? if so, has the chemical process made the wood less receptive to accepting paint? What caused the crack? Has the chemical process severely dried the wood? The cracks look a bit deep but not structural.
How about rebinding? The binding on this one is shot. it looks very brittle and looks to be crumbling. Will new reapplied binding do the same thing down the line? I understand that it's very difficult to find the same binding RIC used. I suppose that a complete rebinding would be difficult to tell from original unless it was held close to an original instrument.

As you can probably tell, I'm somewhat interested in purchasing this instrument. The seller and I are at odds on the price. The instrument is all there and all original, which is quite appealing. the staining, however is not. Not that it bothers me greatly. It will need to be rebound and a minimum.

Thanks in advance for your assistance!

Sepp

Here's a thread about an early '70s 360 with binding bleed (the "Glueglo effect") including John Hall's comments on it:
viewtopic.php?f=104&t=409851

Another relevant thread: viewtopic.php?f=68&t=410407

There's quite a few examples of this. Is it only limited to Mapleglo? Any Fireglo's out there with the same condition?

Ron,

Thanks for the threads! Very interesting reads. Unfortunately, another unexplained mystery!! Too bad Paul and Dale can't agree on a cause. Regardless, it's not a natural occurrence and it only happens to a small percentage of instruments. Like I suspected, the wood has been compromised and a sanding will not rid the staining. A re-fin with either a darker color or a dark burst is the only option.

Interesting because this instrument has a decent amount of rust on the jack plate where it runs over the binding. This leads me to agree more that it is a somewhat of a chemical reaction that has also had a corrosive affect on the chrome plated steel and the screws that go through the binding and into the wood. The rest of the jack plate is as clean as a whistle.

The staining does not bother me so much as long as she plays well and has the "It" factor! Unfortunately the price has to be right for me to take that leap of faith.

Sepp

I was trading emails with Larry Davis on an unrelated topic when I asked the price to rebind a 4001 with CB binding. I shot him a few fotos and he remarked it was one of the worst cases of Glueglo he'd seen. Anyway, the price for a re-fin in burst along with crack repair and binding would go about $1'100. I've become a bit of a purist about original finishes and while this one has a nice clean finish, the staining has corrupted it and doomed it to either remain somewhat of an eyesore with the potential to degrade further, or refinish it. A nice period correct Autumnglo or dark amber Fireglo would be the most logical option. Burgundyglo would be awesome but I think the stain has severely limited the options.

While I realize this is not the appropriate section for this next question, here goes any way. What is the price range expectation for a 100% complete instrument in this condition? I'm thinking 3k max. Am I off?

Sepp

Kopfjaeger wrote:Burgundyglo would be awesome but I think the stain has severely limited the options.

Sepp

I think a dark BG would look great, really. Maybe go slightly darker as you get to the edge of the body, a just perceptible burst.

Jeff,

I've always wanted a Burgundyglo Ric! Was the Burgundyglo a candy tint or was it more opaque? Anything in the candy family is not going to work unless it's further away from the edges or really dark at the edges.

Any opinion of price?

Sepp

Sepp, that's not mine, just collected from here but it did/does belong to a RRFer. From the ones I have seen BG has a typical Rick CV type finish, not a candy/Ruby kind of finish. They are translucent but the darker ones wouldn't show the staining, I think, if applied dark enough.

As to value, that one is harder to gauge given today's market. Do you know what else is really needed on that bass besides binding/finishing and taking care of some corrosion on the parts?

Jeff,

The one I'm looking at looks to be real nice aside the stain. It looks like it needs nothing else.

Sepp

Kopfjaeger wrote: While I realize this is not the appropriate section for this next question, here goes any way. What is the price range expectation for a 100% complete instrument in this condition? I'm thinking 3k max. Am I off?

Sepp

I think $3K would be the absolute max for this one. There have been several '72s in nice shape original finish that have sold in the $2500-$3200 range in the last few months.

Guys, having been in the repair/restoration business since 1980, I have seen this issue come up, but mostly with Gretsch guitars. I understand the phenomenon is caused by off-gassing of the celluloid binding and in the pics above, you can easily see small areas where chunks are missing.

PLEASE READ AND UNDERSTAND! Information which came from a former employee of the last American plastics factory stated that some companies would cut corners in producing celluloid. How many old Gibson mandolins from the turn of the century still have all of their celluloid parts very much intact and solid? Have all celluloid guitar parts turned to dust? No, they have not. I have had people bring me their prized Gretsch Chet Atkins guitar which was loved and well cared for, only to discover that the binding was literally turning to powder. D'angelico archtops are also included due to the large number needing to have the binding and pickguards replaced.

The former employee of the plastics factory said that pure distilled water was used in manufacturing celluloid as well as anhydrous (water-free) alcohol sprinkled on during the process. The "corner cutters" would use tap-water and regular denatured alcohol instead which, over the years, set up an invisible instability which at some point, presented itself as fumes leaching out of the plastic and affecting the finish, the plating on the hardware, and of course, the eventual binding crumbling and turning into a powdery mess.

I believe that instruments not stored continuously in their cases have less problems due to the fumes not saturating the air inside the case. While this may not be the complete answer to the issue being discussed, I hope it is helpful info.

Jim

Jim,

I do believe this since the steel jack plate has become affected by the chemical process gong on in the area where it touches. You are 100% correct that most vintage instrument binding has no ill effect. Case in point is my 1965 4001 which has seen hard usage and gigged extensively. it's binding is in perfect condition. This bass that I've posted the binding is anything but perfect. I'm no pro and I can't say I've handled hundreds of 60's & early 70's bases but this bass has the worst binding I've ever seen, by far!.

The only question is why have all Rickenbacker bound instruments of this vintage suffered a similar fate? That is what I can't wrap my head around.

Sepp

It's interesting that this has come up. One of my 71s is now having binding issues.
The binding is literally melting!
I thought that this was because I put it in a new case and out gassing of the case materials was
interacting with the binding....
Changing cases helped some, but it's soft in places:-(

John,

What color is your 71? Is there staining of the finish as well?

Negotiations have broken down between me and the seller of the bass. I offered my max up front and countered, which is not the way to negotiate with me. I don't negotiate because I hate the process. it drives my wife nuts! He says he in no hurry to sell and that's good because I'm in no hurry to buy. To further complicate things he wants payment via bank transfer so as not to incur any fee. He'd probably take a bank check as well.

Anyway, he claims to have all this knowledge with Gibson instruments and that this binding out gassing happens to Gibsons as well as Gretch and D'Angelico guitars. He says he has seen the staining and binding breakdown on Rickenbacker Fireglo as well. Can anyone back that up?

He also says the situation with the binding has stabilized and the instrument is no longer out gassing. I doubted both statements and said that to fully stop the instrument from degrading further is to pull the binding off and rebind. I also stated the finish was toast and the only option to re-finish would be a very dark color or dark ringed burst. He send me some detail fotos and there is also slight cracking on the edge of the instrument under the white portion of the binding.

On the plus side, the neck looks very straight has maintains super low action!. The bass is also all original and has all the correct components along with the cirrect pup cover.

I did a price comparison with 70-71 dated instruments that sold over the past year. I used the info in the registry. My offer was a little higher than what basses in better shape sold for. I used the info for pre three piece necks so it would be comparing apples to apples. Not that I feel a three piece neck is not worth as much. Actually, I think an early three piece neck makes the instrument more valuable because of being more stable.

Sepp

chefothefuture wrote:It's interesting that this has come up. One of my 71s is now having binding issues.
The binding is literally melting!
I thought that this was because I put it in a new case and out gassing of the case materials was
interacting with the binding....
Changing cases helped some, but it's soft in places:-(

...seems to be a 40 years time bomb that now reached it's blast!