4004 CII question on changing hardware..

[Isaac]

I've owned my share of 4904's, all trans colors... personally, if I had a black one regardless of model I'd be going with black hardware. Have you considered that? Sonically the L should have more of a bite than the Cii...

Should the L have more bite? Solid body electrics, same size, same shape, same pickups same electronics. Seems to me they'd sound pretty much identical. What am I missing?

[jps]

I've owned my share of 4904's, all trans colors... personally, if I had a black one regardless of model I'd be going with black hardware. Have you considered that? Sonically the L should have more of a bite than the Cii...

Should the L have more bite? Solid body electrics, same size, same shape, same pickups same electronics. Seems to me they'd sound pretty much identical. What am I missing?

What you're missing (understandable as you have no real world experience with these, IIRC) is that the maple/walnut/maple sandwich takes the bite away from the inherent tone of the all maple body a bit.

[Isaac]

I can accept that, at least tentatively. I have a 4004Cii, but I've never played a Laredo to compare. I tend toward the opinion that so-called tone woods have less effect on the tone than a lot of other people seem to think.

[jps]

When I got my first 4004, a Cii I bought new in 2004 I was a bit disappointed in the darker tone so I swapped the HB-1s for scatterwound toasters. A few years later I got to sample a Laredo with the stock HB-1s in it. It sounded just like what I was expecting, so from my real world perspective, I do find a difference in tone between the Cii and the L. YMMV.

The Snowglo Laredo with its stock HB-1s sound great, even with its stock wiring harness, to the possibly dismay of some.

[bassduke49]

But be aware that SOME Laredos may be constructed with the maple/walnut/maple sandwich like the Cii is. That was the case with the 2004 Turquoise Laredo I owned that is shown in the book.

[woodyng]

Replacing the volume and tone pots,as well as the mismatched capacitor with hb-optimal ones pretty much does away with the "dark" tone. I've seen it time and again on my collection.
Both my Cii,and my Cheyenne1 were almost comically muffled sounding at flat amp settings,until i had the components replaced with harnesses that Dane made. There's no lack of treble clarity with the hb's in either one of them,now.
I do think the different woods/construction have a subtle effect on the tone,but it's not all that different from the signature Rick sound.(the all maple laredos sound a bit more "crisper",but then again,i have rw strings on them,and flats/tapes on the cheyennes.)

[Isaac]

I'm still not ready to ascribe the difference in tone to the wood. When I replaced the volume pot in my Cheyenne with a 500K pot, I measured the one I took out. Supposedly a 330K, it measured around 180K. That, I think, would make a big difference in tone, far more than the type of wood used. And if it happened on my bass, it could easily have happened to another.

[bluewhale]

I'm still not ready to ascribe the difference in tone to the wood...

Then how about this: the 4004L has a finished fingerboard; the 4004Cii does not!

I dislike the sound of my 4004Cii when it's just me, the bass, and the amp. Not sure what it is - something to do with the electronics. But that all changes when I'm playing along with something. I'm happy enough with the sound that I decided against things like the VVT modification. It fills the room in a certain way that my 4001's don't.

bluewhale

[aceonbass]

When I got my first 4004, a Cii I bought new in 2004 I was a bit disappointed in the darker tone so I swapped the HB-1s for scatterwound toasters. A few years later I got to sample a Laredo with the stock HB-1s in it. It sounded just like what I was expecting, so from my real world perspective, I do find a difference in tone between the Cii and the L. YMMV.

The Snowglo Laredo with its stock HB-1s sound great, even with its stock wiring harness, to the possibly dismay of some.

In 2004 the pots in 4004's would have been around 180K. A few years later they would have been 330K. This could easily account for a difference in tone. I'm constantly amazed that people will spend $300+ on new pickups while ignoring the least expensive alternative...and then sell the bass anyway. That 4004TVY one-off bass that RIC sold on eBay arrived at its new owners with the usual one spec fits all electronics, which nearly resulted in the owner selling the bass because he couldn't get the tone he wanted out of it. I built him a new harness, and he was much happier with the tone. Unfortunately the bass still had unacceptably high action, so the bass was sold to someone else who sent it to me to set up properly. As it turns out, the bass should have been equipped with the Schaller bridge that RIC now uses, instead of the ABM bridge, since they changed the geometry of the neck, making the fingerboard lower on that, and subsequent 4004's. The new bridge and electronics made all the difference in the world on this bass. The ebony fretboard on this bass definitely gave it a different tone than any 4004 I've ever heard.

[jps]

I was happy with the toasters that I installed in that Cii, for multiple reasons. I swapped out the original harness, anyway, to install the VVT one I made for it (which may end up in the Snowglo one of these days, possibly). In the end, I sold the bass for neck dimension reasons. The current ones have great feeling neck, to me. I am still toying with the idea of a new harness in the 4004L SPC for individual volumes and a 3-way tone selector switch (moderate roll-off/bypass/deep roll-off).

Or, I could go all out and install an Alembic Series II package.

[woodyng]

I'm still not ready to ascribe the difference in tone to the wood...

Then how about this: the 4004L has a finished fingerboard; the 4004Cii does not!

I dislike the sound of my 4004Cii when it's just me, the bass, and the amp. Not sure what it is - something to do with the electronics. But that all changes when I'm playing along with something. I'm happy enough with the sound that I decided against things like the VVT modification. It fills the room in a certain way that my 4001's don't.

bluewhale

"Smacks self on forehead"
Yes,funny i overlooked that.
The finished fretboards on Laredos do contribute to a bit more brightness in the tone,no doubt.

[Isaac]

I'm still not ready to ascribe the difference in tone to the wood...

Then how about this: the 4004L has a finished fingerboard; the 4004Cii does not!

I dislike the sound of my 4004Cii when it's just me, the bass, and the amp. Not sure what it is - something to do with the electronics. But that all changes when I'm playing along with something. I'm happy enough with the sound that I decided against things like the VVT modification. It fills the room in a certain way that my 4001's don't.

bluewhale

I agree with you there. The sound of my Cii doesn't make smile, all by itself, but it does fill out the bottom end beautifully.

[Isaac]

When I got my first 4004, a Cii I bought new in 2004 I was a bit disappointed in the darker tone so I swapped the HB-1s for scatterwound toasters. A few years later I got to sample a Laredo with the stock HB-1s in it. It sounded just like what I was expecting, so from my real world perspective, I do find a difference in tone between the Cii and the L. YMMV.

The Snowglo Laredo with its stock HB-1s sound great, even with its stock wiring harness, to the possibly dismay of some.

In 2004 the pots in 4004's would have been around 180K. A few years later they would have been 330K. This could easily account for a difference in tone. I'm constantly amazed that people will spend $300+ on new pickups while ignoring the least expensive alternative...and then sell the bass anyway. That 4004TVY one-off bass that RIC sold on eBay arrived at its new owners with the usual one spec fits all electronics, which nearly resulted in the owner selling the bass because he couldn't get the tone he wanted out of it. I built him a new harness, and he was much happier with the tone. Unfortunately the bass still had unacceptably high action, so the bass was sold to someone else who sent it to me to set up properly. As it turns out, the bass should have been equipped with the Schaller bridge that RIC now uses, instead of the ABM bridge, since they changed the geometry of the neck, making the fingerboard lower on that, and subsequent 4004's. The new bridge and electronics made all the difference in the world on this bass. The ebony fretboard on this bass definitely gave it a different tone than any 4004 I've ever heard.

Yep, that's what I found when I replaced my 4004Cii's volume pot. The one I took out was about 180K. Putting in a 500K made a huge difference in tone.

[rickenbrother]

I replaced the ABM bridge with a Hipshot A Style bridge.

Hey Jeff, do you remember exactly which one? They make the A Style with several different string spacings. I'm thinking about getting one for my Blueburst 4004Cii. The neck is straight as an arrow, and the bridge saddles are just about bottomed out, but I'm not satisfied with the action.

[jps]

At the time, I got the .750 string spacing bridge as it was going on the '04 Cii with the 7ender spacing at the bridge. For a new 4004 (post '11) I'd go with one with narrower spacing.