4003: truss rod "torque" and neck twist

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kiwi
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4003: truss rod "torque" and neck twist

Post by kiwi »

Hi all,

when I recently contributed to another truss rod related topic, it brought back memories of a rather interesting phenomenon I've stumbled across many years ago, and I thought I'd share it with you belatedly. Not only is it "interesting". It also has certain implications on neck adjustment procedures, which shall not remain lurking in secret secrecy.
Please pardon me if it's already been covered elsewhere in the forum - I couldn't find any related topics so far.

I call this phenomenon "truss rod torque" for now, and will try my best in explaining what the hell I mean by this. ;-)

Okay, here we go:

When I was adjusting the neck of my 1987-ish 4003, I accordingly turned the truss rod nuts clockwise in order to re-introduce some straightness, hoping to get rid of a small amount of twist in the process.
As I didn't know better back then, I simply tightened both adjustment nuts without manually forcing the neck backwards. At best, I may have de-tuned the strings a bit. No lubrication on the threads either, I hate to admit. And here comes my eureka moment:

When I was done cranking clockwise and finally let go of the wrench, the whole neck was twisted counter clockwise! Quite a bit more so than before I started.
What happened was that both due to lack of lubricant and manual relief (no pun intended!), the clockwise torque of the wrench/nut got transferred to the rod.
The rod itself must have stored this energy like a spring, only waiting for the next best opportunity to release it in the form of a counter-clockwise motion.
This motion again met little to no resistance by the neck, as it was one of the VERY thin and narrow ones. And twist it did - 1:0 for the rod!

Everything ended well though, because after I got rid of any friction between the truss rod(s) and the nut(s) the neck straightness was were I wanted it to be. No more twistin' by the pool either. ;-)

The point of me probably boring the heck out of everyone by now is this:

1. If you ever wonder why a neck twist can't be corrected no matter how long you try with the rod tension alone, first make sure there's ABSOLUTELY no friction at the threads! Always keep them well lubricated, and use the same standard procedure recommended for 4001 style hairpin rods, regardless if it's a 4003 bass!

2. What's true for Rick basses is true for ANY bass as well. Always make it easy for the rod(s) to do what they're supposed to:
To maintain a given setup rather than forcing the neck into a certain setup.


Cheers,
Karsten
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Dirk
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Re: 4003: truss rod "torque" and neck twist

Post by Dirk »

Not sure where you're lubing up the rod? You mean the threads?
I've never had to do that. And if you lube the threads they don't want to hold in place, which is their job.

My early 4003 used classic hairpin rods, so I have no clue on the modern rods.

When you tighten the rod nut you're pulling the ends towards each other making the middle pop against the fingerboard.

Curiously I've seen truss rods that adjust completely opposite for instance Lefty Tight, Righty Loose.
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jps
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Re: 4003: truss rod "torque" and neck twist

Post by jps »

Dirk wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 8:57 am Curiously I've seen truss rods that adjust completely opposite for instance Lefty Tight, Righty Loose.
The only TRs like that that I recall are the ones in Pedulla basses.
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henry5
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Re: 4003: truss rod "torque" and neck twist

Post by henry5 »

jps wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 11:21 am
Dirk wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 8:57 am Curiously I've seen truss rods that adjust completely opposite for instance Lefty Tight, Righty Loose.
The only TRs like that that I recall are the ones in Pedulla basses.
Sei basses too, certainly up until recently. I’ve heard of others too, although I can’t recall which.
kiwi
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Re: 4003: truss rod "torque" and neck twist

Post by kiwi »

Dirk wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 8:57 am Not sure where you're lubing up the rod? You mean the threads?
I've never had to do that. And if you lube the threads they don't want to hold in place, which is their job.

My early 4003 used classic hairpin rods, so I have no clue on the modern rods.

When you tighten the rod nut you're pulling the ends towards each other making the middle pop against the fingerboard.

Curiously I've seen truss rods that adjust completely opposite for instance Lefty Tight, Righty Loose.

Yes, I do mean the threads indeed.
If the rods are tightened ever so slightly, they won't come loose even when lubed. This can only happen if there's no tension at all, which rarely is the case.

To the best of my knowledge, 4003 models never had the classic (4001 style) hairpin rods.
In fact, the main difference between 4001 and 4003 was the change from hairpin to "normal" Fender-type rods, and the business end being moved from the headstock to the base of the neck. They also abandoned the 1970's skunk stripe, and the "maple only" neck made its return. Everything else remained virtually unchanged.
If your 4003 indeed had the hairpins, it could only be some sort of transitional instrument. Maybe they used up their 4001 inventory, and only had 4003 TRCs to smack on there? Everything's possible, so who knows... ;-)

Although you've certainly got only the best intentions, I can assure you that I'm probably the last person in need of a truss rod lecture. ;-)
I've built basses and guitars from scratch (no "parts projects"!), and also have quite a bit of repair/restoration work on both 4001 and 4003 models under my belt - including fretboard replacement; I know my bass neck anatomy inside out. I've seen them "in the nude", so to speak.
And yes - I know that any tension is running along the longitudinal axis.
And yes - I know they're not glued in place. (NO truss rod should be, right?)

My OP was all about information regarding the possibility of treating a warped/twisted neck the wrong way, simply because the "torque" issue I'm describing can easily be overlooked (well - I did at first!).
It was about ruling out one possible source of error.
It was not about starting a discussion in the first place...
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Dirk
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Re: 4003: truss rod "torque" and neck twist

Post by Dirk »

Frenz was another custom maker that did reverse direction truss rods.

My 4003 is indeed an '81 so yes early 4003, and absolutely has classic rods.
So yes I bet they were using up the old 4001 rods in stock. And mine is also adjusted at the body end, 2 piece neck, no stripe.

And for reference, I've been building from scratch for years as well.
I was thinking it was a request for information, no ill will intended at all.

Dirk
kiwi
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Re: 4003: truss rod "torque" and neck twist

Post by kiwi »

Dirk wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:09 am ...I've been building from scratch for years as well.
Hey, that's cool! :-)

I realized that once you've got bitten by the "build yer own"-bug, there's almost no way back to the conventional off-the-wall stuff - except for certain vintage instruments...
what's your take on this?
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Dirk
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Re: 4003: truss rod "torque" and neck twist

Post by Dirk »

Yeah I mostly play my own 6 string fan fretted basses these days.

When I lust after something unique and new, I usually think I can build that, since my cheapnis usually wins.

I really like diversity too, it's always inspirational to go back to 4 string.
kiwi
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Re: 4003: truss rod "torque" and neck twist

Post by kiwi »

Dirk wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:41 am When I lust after something unique and new, I usually think I can build that, since my cheapnis usually wins.
Plus you've got the extra benefit of tailoring the instrument to your exact needs! 8)

I used to own both 5- and 6- string basses, but only for a brief period of time. Partly because I don't really need them, but mainly because I love me some good ol' P-Bass. That's always been my go-to bass, and I'll probably get buried with one! :wink:

That being said, Im actually considering a 5er for my next build - most likely fanned-fret while I'm at it. I have a nice, solid quartersawn maple blank lyin' around, that just screams "I wanna be a 5 string neck!"...
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