Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

here's a copy of a thread i started in the bass section, but i actually think this is the right place for it. Anyway:

hello everyone, this is my very first thread. I always found everything i needed by only lurking around you great bunch of people. Anyway, here{s my dilemma:

To get rid of lots of surface scratches on my 4003, I used rubbing compound , first the red one (turtle wax brand), then the green one. I reaqd the post about finish touchups where Mr HAll goes about saying how it should be done.


Use a bit of abrasive rubbing compound (automotive red or green works fine) on some cheese cloth to polish up the dull area, trying to keep off of the surrounding area as much as possible. Switch to fine compound (automotive white) to polish it more and you can now go a bit wide to blend it.

anyway, i cant seem to find the "white" polish. Is this some sort of mistake? i went crazy looking for that stuff today: walmart, autozone, hardware stores, you name it. I did find polish/wax, formula1 polish, but i have no idea if these producs are the same thing as mr Hall suggests. I'd like to know exaclty some brand/product/presentation that offers the thing i need (white rubbing compound?) Can anyone please help me out on this? my finish is sooo dull

Luis: Welcome to The Rickenbacker Forum. I have used the Meguiar products with much success.

But before you get into the polish, do you need to be that aggressive. Will a pure carnauba wax do?

If you mix the white top carnauba turtle wax with an equal volume of water you can get a brilliant shine even with hand buffing.

Sorry to be following you around the Forum this evening.

thanks for the response! actually, there was some buckle rash and the surface was uneven, so i had to do the polish thing. I think the previous owner tried to remove a sticker using acetone (i am really guessing here) because a spot looked as if it was painted on with a paintbrush )except it is a perfect match, so i guess he used a solvent that did that to the finish. I had to polish. So now i have to get rid of those polish swirls, and the white top tutle wax just doesnt seem enough. Ive rubbed and rubbed and it seems i need a finer polish before wax. I dont know, really. Should i just continue rubbing until the finish clears up? thanks!

I have had good luck using plastic polish. Meguiar's makes some that works well. It is even finer than any of the products made for paint. It's also good for the pickguard.

that's great to know, i need to polish a pickguard too

Dear Luis and other members:

I've been finishing product prototypes, cars, and guitars, for almost four decades now. (Guitar finishing technology is akin more to car painting these days than to furniture finishing, as it used to be!) I teach these crafts on a university level to automotive and product design students.

The RED rubbing compound you are using (Du Pont #7 or Turtle Wax brand in a flat green and white can?) is way too abrasive for glossing up a guitar, especially the finish on a Rick. It can work in the hands of an experienced pro, but it's dicey because it'll slash right through all the paint coats on edges and possibly eat through the clearcoat into the undercoats or even bare wood, given half a chance. Du Pont does make a white compound called (right on the can) Polishing Compound. I believe it's #22. At any rate, it's about as agressive as you want for a guitar.

I agree with Peter on Meguiar's products--they are good for what you're trying to do. I have an even "hotter" tip, though, and it's one I've used repeatedly over the last decade or so with really fine results.

This is a three-step process, consisting of (1) rubbing out the dull paint finish, (2) glazing to remove the swirl marks and haze which rubbing out leaves, and (3) waxing with a water-based, non-abrasive quality wax to fill any other tiny "haze" marks (actually microscopic scratches) and to seal and protect the surface.

You need three specific products, although there are alternates which I will mention later: You will also need several cloth diapers (preferably clean) or soft COTTON T-shirts with NO silkscreening on them! These are torn into pieces and used to apply, rub in, and wipe off the various grades of abrasives and the wax itself. You'll start out with the coarsest abrasive and work towards the fine glaze, ending up with wax. DO NOT under any circumstances use any poly/cotton or manmade synthetic fabric, no matter how soft it seems to feel.

3M "Perfect-It II" Rubbing Compound (their product #05974) is used on a slightly-dampened COTTON cloth, as the first step. Not too much of this compound, not too little. Rub fairly hard on a small flat area and you'll see the gloss come up as the product breaks down. WATCH THE EDGES; around the sound hole and guitar edges, headstock, etc.--wherever there's a sharpish corner. Try to avoid these completely until the flat areas are done, then just give them a SLIGHT lick and a promise. Add compound as required.

Work a small area (a couple of square inches at a time only) until glossy, and then move on. When the entire guitar has a nice level of hazy but glossy surface, move on to the glaze.

(Step #2) I recommend 3M "Perfect-It III Trizact" Machine Glaze, applied of course by hand. This is their product # 05930. Again, clean cloth, dry this time, work small areas, stay away from edges and corners. The guitar should look nearly water-wet following this stage. Then TWO coats of a water-based pure wax blend (Meguair's Medallion or Zymol are two preferred products). I stay away from waxes which use a petroleum distillate as a solvent, as they do not allow "build" and will yellow the guitar's finish in time and possibly also lead to checking after several years.

Wipe off any excess material from each step before moving on to the next step and next grade of liquid material. Finally, buff carefully with another absolutely clean, dry cotton cloth. Results may vary with your experience level, but if you keep at it, it will eventually blind you in a good way...SHINY, my friend.

Do NOT use any kind of rubbing compound on any metal parts, especially chrome! 3M Imperial Hand Glaze (#39007) works well on chrome and plastic like pickguards and tailpieces.

A Question for Paul,
I read your post with interest and while I don't need an aggressive polishing regime, to restore the finish on my 360/12v64, I tried an alternate to the two Meguairs products suggested on this forum. Why alternatives? The Meguair's (#7 & #9) are from the professional range out here in Australia, so I contacted Meguiar's here via email and they suggested 'Step 2 Deep Crystal' to start with and use 'Quik Detailer' to maintain the finish, as an alternative.

After I read your post I was back onto Meguiar's again to ask if this 'Step 2' polish was petro chemical or water based, as it doesn't say anything on the bottles. He couldn't tell me and said he'd have to go through a pile of 'MSDS's' to find out, but assured me it should be okay. When I mentioned using the Meguair's Medallion wax - he said it's a very old product and no longer kept here. He said if it was faint swirl marks I wanted to remove then to use a new product for clear coat finishes on cars, called 'Next Tech Wax'(I think). Here is my dilemma, he said just pick an obscure part of the guitar and give it a try - if there's no adverse affect, do the rest! My reply was, what if there is - who is going to pay to restore the damage? I guess you can figure out his reply.

So after all of that, I'm back at the beginning, and $40.00 out of pocket. To get my 360/12v64 back to Australia cost me a lot of dough, and I don't want to wreck it just on a 'it should be okay' but no responsibility recommendation. Haven't heard of Zymol products before, are there any others you'd recommend. Have sent an email off to 3M re 'Perfect-It III Trizact Machine Glaze' and waiting for a reply.

I know this is a long winded question but any help would be appreciated.

Ron

Well, Ron:

A long-winded question begs for a similar, answer, huh?

OK, since I'm not too familiar with premium wax products Down Under, let me talk a bit about the principles involved. Then p'raps you can take it from there and work out your own polishing regimen.

All rubbing compounds have some petroleum distillate (Can you say "paint thinner"? Same stuff...) in them. There are all different grades of abrasive depending upon the brand and purpose. Old DuPont #7 leads the pack in abrasiveness. This is the rust-colored pasty stuff in the flat can. It has a very strong petroleum smell. I would NEVER recommend it for a guitar--it wears the paint away at a ferocious rate and was originally formulated for badly oxidized THICK alkyd enamel finishes on cars back in the 1940s.

The 3M Perfect-It line is probably the best (compound and glaze) I know of. It is intended for machine buffing on large areas like a car bonnet or roof, but when applied by hand, it's perfect for synthetic guitar finishes like Rickenbacker's so-called "conversion varnish". The key here, though, is to get your hands on compounds and glazes that are intended for machine buffing, and then use it by hand. Same thing with the glazes. Stay away from paste-type rubbing compounds in flat cans, and to be safe I'll generalize and say go with the tan colored stuff in plastic bottles. These generally have less aggressive abrasives than the pastes.

Two final points to re-emphasize: COTTON CLOTH to apply, buff, and remove the various compounds and waxes, and WATER-BASE wax for your final waxing. If you're not sure if a final wax is water-based, let your nose tell you! Take a sniff and if it smells like paint thinner or kerosene (paraffin oil), steer clear. Now that my old favorite (Thompson's "The Treatment") is gone, we are left with Medallion and Zymol.

Whoever told you that Medallion is no longer made is badly-informed. It was originally just a wax, but now it's a whole category within Meguiar's product line. The product you want is called "Medallion Premium Paint Protection", in a black 8-ounce plastic bottle. If you're gonna stay with Meguiar's, start with their "#2 Fine Cut Cleaner", and follow with their "#9 Swirl Mark Remover", then with TWO applications of "Medallion" water-based wax.

There's a German line called Menzerna. You can start with their "Intensive Polish" and then go on to their "Final Polish", then on to Medallion or Zymol water-based wax.

Let me tell you something about Meguiar's. They are a cash-rich company that sat in the background for two generations and then exploded a decade or so ago. They aggressively market their products and are constantly fiddling with formuas, ostensibly because "modern paint systems are changing and [they] want to stay state-of-the-art". The real reason their product line is in constant flux, I suspect, is because car guys (and gals) are (almost) as obsessive as Rick guys (and gals) and will buy the latest, even when they still have lots of last year's products sitting on the garage shelf. This (I imagine) explains their "Next Tech Wax". Body shop and auto parts stores will of course favor the "latest stuff" that their inside salesmen are pushing. The result is confusion and a lot of wasted but perfectly good product! Too slippery for this old guy...

Zymol is fairly common here (I just bought a fresh bottle last week!). Of course their URL is www.zymol.com. Once you have used it, you'll never forget it--it is formulated with only natural ingredients, and the predominant scent is coconut. Yum. Medallion has a nice smell, too.

The Meguiar's product I mentioned above is #17 Professional Plastic Cleaner. Let there be no doubt that there are Petroleum Distillates in this product. I have used this for around 15 years on a number of instruments including Rics with good results. As I mentioned before this is much finer than products made for paint so it is the least aggressive. Other maufacturers include Novous (SP?) and the folks that make Micro Mesh paper. I'm sure there are probably more.

Just because there are Petroleum Distillates in a product does not mean that it will harm a particular finish. When working with H. Behlen Nitrcellulose Stringed Instrument Laquer they recommend wet sanding with mineral spirits as not to introduce moisture to the finish. If you have ever worked with products like Rotten Stone you can use water or oil to obtain different finishes.

Maybe an E-mail to Ric customer service may put your mind as ease. I am sure that they have their reccomendations.

Ken, I'm not dissing products with petroleum spirits in them. And yes. it is possibly better to rottestone or wetsand with paint thinner. Who would want to get water in their wood if they sand through the lacquer? But lacquer is an old-fashioned way to finish a guitar, although I'd never use urethane on a vintage violin!!!

I've got an old bottle of Meguiar's#17 and have pulled it out and tried it many times. I still prefer Novus #2 for a really fine polish, but remember that it is a plastic polish, and the others I mention are better, if only marginally on paint. They will all get the job done well, however, without splitting too many hairs.

I advise against using a WAX containing petroleum solvents, because it won't "build" properly. The solvent in the wax will strip the previous coat of wax from the surface. If your guitar is white (Sno-glo??) the solvents will cause it to yellow in time.

Water-based waxes that are natural oil-containing allow you to build one coat on top of another. Zymol advises misting the waxed surface with a bit of water spray and re-buffing to "flow out" the coating.

Thanks to Ken & Paul for your help, either way I don't feel as concerned about the detrimental effect of petroleum products on my 360/12 v64.

Thanks for taking the time to present you views - a really big help!!!!

Ron