Rickresource Rickenbacker Forum

I've had more than one customer ask us why we don't "fix" the location of the bridge on the basis of Mark Arnquist's assertions. I thought I would share my response to such an email today with a few extra comments [in brackets]:

"You can be assured that much technical work with regard to the bridge placement has been done over the years. Unfortunately, it's not the simple issue everyone makes it out to be.

First off, it really is entirely string dependent, the proper length being a function of the type of string, alloy, and gauge. A light flatwound requires quite a bit extra length for compensation while a heavy round wound requires a much shorter string. If the string were a perfect wave motion device this would not be true, but a string is much more complex. It vibrates in a helix instead of a wave due to the windings and the windings exert additional friction at different points depending on type. [This is mainly why one string sounds nice compared to another, instead of just a pure sine wave tone]

Next off, the inconsistency in strings is really unbelievable and unfortunately, some of the most well known brands are the worst. Rather than slag anyone, let me tell you that D'Addario, GHS, SIT, (and naturally our own brand since one of these is our supplier) are the very best in this regard. So called "hand-made" strings are absolutely the worst. [I'm mainly referring to accuracy of string diameter and distribution of mass over the length of the string.]

Then there's the guitar adjustment itself. Bow and height are almost more important than the intonation adjustment at the bridge; these dramatically change the working length of the string. [In the case of a RIC, the neck needs to be dead straight for best action and intonation, which isn't always true for other makes. Don't forget that when you fret, you're creating a triangular relationship between string, fret surface, and bridge height which magnifies errors here.]

A guitar is really a huge bunch of compromises because everything affects everything else and certain simplifications (i.e. straight frets that serve all six strings) make any guitar quite imperfect. Different people hear these imperfections in very individual fashion too, so what I prefer may not suit you at all. As an example, an absolutely perfectly intoned 12 stringer is one of the most unattractive sounds you'll ever hear as some of the normal imperfections are what provide the distinctive character,

The bottom line is not that the placement is wrong . . . the current location serves the widest range of strings and individual preference . . . but the range of adjustability is too limited. [Musical preferences have changed perhaps forcing this, but these guitars are often used for "old music" too.] This suggests that we should simply redesign the bridge assembly and indeed I intend to. You'll note that the 650 Series already has much more travel. The problem is that customers hate for us to change anything on existing models so we are pretty well limited to phasing in upgrades with new models. However, I have posted photos on several sites of the new 300 series bass plate which unobtrusively allows for much greater adjustment. This part is already in our inventory and will be on all new guitars soon. In case you missed it, here's the link:

base plate photo

I wish this issue were just as simple as Mark Arnquist makes it out to be but it just isn't. And can you imagine for one moment that we wouldn't just move the placement if the solution really was so simple?"

Its also worth noting that a huge number of recordings have been made with these beautiful guitars.

My 360/12v64 is sitting out in my bedroom and I have to tell you: it has some "dangerous curves"!! Voluptuous even...

I suspect that in my individual case, the fact that the guitar I purchased (as new - I thought) ended up having non-stock 8's on it!!

Intellectually, I had already decided to install a 12 saddle bridge and I'm quite happy I did. I have also installed stock RIC strings following my bridge install.

John,
Isn't the slotted bridge essentially moving the bridge? I have conversed with you before and I want to make it clear I am not trying to be antagonistic or rude. I am merely discussing the subject because I am interested in your opinion. My personal non-technical opinion which has no scientific or researched backing, is that there isn't enough travel in the saddles. By moving the bridge back a small amount it allows enough travel to intonate. I use RIC strings and I love them. They should work perfectly as they are what the instrument is designed to use. Do you think it is a case by case situation that if arises needs to be fixed by a luthier? Since Rickenbacker does not provide non warranty service I would think you would refer people to qualified luthiers that are qualified to make a truely beautiful instrument sing. Again, this forum is for discussion, and I am not taking sides or calling anyone a liar.

I would like to thank John Hall for his response; I too think that a perfectly intonated 12-string would take away from an inherent quality of a Rickenbacker 12: the 'shimmer' effect. Roger McGuinn himself states in his own instructional video that to attain a 'proper' sound when tuning, the top E and B strings must be tuned slightly flat, even thought his own 370/12 is equipped with a 12-saddle bridge. My own 370/12 from 1968 still has its 6-saddle bridge and its intonation is fine; I guess in the end it comes down to how far one needs to go for 'perfect intonation'...in the almost 40 years the Rickenbacker 12-string has existed, it was and still is the King.

Perhaps I wasn't specific enough. When I said "the range of adjustability is too limited" I WAS referring to the saddle travel. Yes, I was saying and agree, the assembly really needs to be redesigned to allow them to move more. We're going to have to update this part on the modern product line at some point and bite the bullet with regard to all of you who will undoubtedly claim we destroyed the guitar by changing something. Naturally, the V and C cannot be changed but the modern versions of guitars should be able to be upgraded to reflect the demands of the current era.

With a quality string within the factory spec range on the guitar, the current positioning should meet the needs of the vast majority of players, as it has done for many decades. Those that wish to use a flatwound or other string outside of the normal spec may well need to make adjustments . . . of the bridge, neck, and nut, all of which are part of the intonation equation, but that's the exception, not the average user.

There's another side issue jumbled into this and that's the 12 saddle bridge. It's becoming increasingly apparent that this part must be installed by a knowledgeable and skillful person. At the same time there really is a question as to whether this assembly is even necessary: I don't and won't have one of these on any guitar I own because I don't like the sound and using a quality non-flatwound string set I simply don't have any problem. As a result, we're currently studying three distinctly different policies regarding this:

1. Dropping the part entirely.

2. Supplying all 12 stringers with this bridge with a slight price increase for those models that don't already have it, in which case those people like me which prefer the original tone can still switch back to a 6 saddle bridge.

3. Offering the part exclusively through a select group of qualified professional installers.

It's unfortunate in my opinion that we even have to consider options like this but a sad few are basically driving this, when it's something that's worked to an acceptable level for several tens of thousands of customers during the last 38 years of our 12-stringers.

Intonation itself is a VERY interesting topic. The fact of the matter is that no instrument with fixed notes (like a guitar or a piano) can ever be "perfect" across its entire tonal range for all chord combinations due to the nature of the intervals involved. Pianos have historically had a number of "accepted" intonations which piano tuners work with/to (not just a single PERFECT one).

I'm sure that all of us have played the game of "splitting the difference" between a perfect harmonic tuning vs a perfect 5th fret/open tuning vs perfect open string octave 2 strings over, etc...

On a six string its relatively easy to get what you need (on a six string with a "floating" bridge it can be as easy as tapping the bridge on the bass and treble sides so that your low/high strings are good and hope for the best in between).

On a twelve string, it can be more challenging.

I suspect that the mechanical difference between a six saddle and a twelve saddle bridge is noticeable in the tone - a reason why Mr.Hall prefers the six possibly. The wrap-around tail pieces on older Les Pauls were essentially a single piece. The original Telecasters only had three saddle pieces. Virtually all acoustic guitars have a single piece of "bone" for their bridge - granted this piece while attached on an angle is filed to crown to compensate for the strings, but it is not nearly what can be accomplished via an adjustable saddle.

I like the RIC twelve saddle bridge which I installed without problem on my 360/12v64. In combination with a new set of RIC strings, my guitar sings. The saddle spread I have between my low E and its octave is pretty large and I'm not certain that I would ever be able to get THAT using a six saddle bridge.

John,
You make a very interesting point. You don't care for the sound you get with a 12 saddle bridge. Your opinion as a musician is just as valid as any other musicians. For my style I can't deal with the 6 saddle, and you have already said you don't like the 12. You need to let each guitarist have the setup he/she prefers. As far as a new policy, I like your #2. I don't think you should discontinue the 12 saddle bridge. You are obviously getting feedback from your customers, and if you listen to some suggestions, as well as holding on to some age old wisdoms that have worked for years, we can all be happy. I am very impressed that you respond to praise and criticism promptly. It shows you care about your product. We don't have to agree with all of your decisions, and you don't have to agree with your doubters. Somewhere in between there lies an understanding that we all care about the future of a grand tradition of Rickenbacker owners and players. Only those who have played a Rickenbacker know what that is.

Jon

Guys: Can anyone explain what gives you a tonal difference between the 6-saddle and the 12-saddle bridge? I am assuming it may have to do with the differeces in metallurgy and construction. I would think that in order for a customer to have the bridge of choice as stated in Jon's post each guitar would have to be 'special ordered', even if it meant the only concern was bridge selection...It would undoubtedly slow the manufacturing and delivery process as it stands, and make it somewhat difficult to 'buy off the rack', not knowing what to put on the instrument ahead of time; knowing that you cannot perfectly intonate an guitar in the first place, where do the clear advantages lie in making these changes..?? Just food for thought.

It is not feasible for the choice of 6 or 12 saddle to be an option. We already track 2800 model SKUs which is far too many.

The sound difference is caused by a) the saddle material, i.e. hard vs soft aluminum (early 12 saddles were steel, even worse) b) the interaction between strings which is a good thing in the case of a 12 stringer and c) the dynamics of a small saddle vs. a large one. Quantifying that, the 12 saddle bridge is decidedly harsh and bright which may be fine if you only play Byrds tunes but much too brash if you intend to play Beatles or other music. It's okay with a 381/12 too, due to the naturally mellow sound of the body.

Paul Kantner is another player that like myself that simply will not use a 12 saddle bridge.

One of Paul Kantner's best friends is a stickler for intonation,low action ,quality strings ,and wants ALL of the strings intonated .He also is really picky about fret crowning and how polished they are .Although he does not play his electric 12 string constantly ,it must be in top notch working order.
His friend...?David Crosby.
He and Mr.Roger McGuinn were the two individuals that put this bug in my ear when I was 22 years old .
I thank both of them for letting me work on their instruments over the years.

Roger to likes low action with almost zero relief in the neck .I am finding this to be true of ALL players of electric 12 strings.

My favorite strings for 12 strings are indeed either D'Addario,GHS -Gus sets,or Rick strings.I have never tried S.I.T. strings as a 'brand' as I find the name a silly marketing ploy ,I stayed away from them .I was also happy with other brands.

The 12 strings that I have 'moved the bridge on were to accommodate these strings .The reason for moving was so that the springs would not need to be removed,and the saddles would remain more centered in the chassis .
I have noted several guitars that have the saddles all the way back against the chassis over the years.
1-All of the guitars (six of them ) on the cover of 'Vintage Guitar Classic' Magazine
2-The fireglo 330-12 on page 89 of the Richard R Smith book-'the Complete History of Rickenbacker Guitars'
3-The 335F on page 230 of the George Gruhn& Walter Carter book 'Electric Guitars and Basses'
While not a 12 string ,it shows the E and the A saddles all the way to the back of the chassis wall with no more room to move .
4- On Roger McGuinn's own/personal guitar which can be seen at
http://www.ibiblio.org/jimmy/mcguinn/RMsetup.html

While I believe that Roger does use 'Pyramid' string and I am not a huge fan of the string nor does John Hall appear to be ,still the fact remains that the E and the A saddles are all the way back against the chassis.

The instruments that I have worked on for Jon Ecklund,Pugnut,Greg Simmons ,Jay Hallstrom,Gary Rollins ,Andy Aldrich,Billy stapleton,Kevin Fallon,Val Kolbeck, Wendell Wright and many more ...they all needed to be moved .To my knowledge all of them except one used either GHS,D'Addario or Rick strings .So I am baffled .

After moving the bridge back away from the neck ,all of these players (and except for Pugnut -his Voxtalks handle),I hear from all the time ,all of these owners still have their guitars ,all have not returned the bridges to the factory location and all of them are extremely happy with my work.
I spent a few minutes yesterday calling sdome of these owners and re asked the question ...."Are you happy with my work on your Rick 12 string and my relocation and intonatiing the guitar.?"

The answer to me was 100% YES!!!

The quality of strings is way better than 25 years ago and at that time I did not understand 100% the effects of string manufacturing on intonation .I have learned much and I have my ear to the pavement to hear the needs of the player as their guitars pass my bench .Many of them want to watch and see what needs to be done .NO ONE wants extra holes drilled into their instruments.

This took lots of playing around with my own Rick 12 string ,checking different brands ,talking to string makers (Peter D'Addario is a regular visitor to my shop when he comes to Seattle to see dealers or go Trout fishing.The last time he was here I was in the process of rebuilding a 1958 Gretsch White Falcon .He stuck around to see how it played .I showed him many photos of the process that it went thru.)

A simple solution ,no but I believe a better solution is to research the publics perception of this and look into it .While it may not be your own ,you will get a feeling for what the public wants.
Try calling and visiting several independent shops ,try this on the sly so you will get an impartial viewpoint.Also a real answer .
You are a 'celebrity' of sorts .Some times that status gets the classic "Oh Yeah...it's great" for any question.

I think that you make a tremendous product .I think that you have improved the quality standards to make Rickenbacker guitars world class and have raised the standard of excellance to a grand level.
But ...The placement of the bridges is an issue to nearly every shop /repair person that I talk with.

So before you react negatively ,please look into what the viewpoint is .I think that you will find it interesting .I am not alone.

As far as moving the bridge, it's soon to be a moot point. The baseplate with slotted hole will allow anyone to move or slant it to their heart's content, with no modification to the guitar.

The plate will also retrofit any existing guitar, so there will never be a need to futz with the guitar.