I Just De-Flowered my 620 FG?

tony_carey · Post by **tony_carey** » Sat May 14, 2005 12:06 am

Steve. 1997 was the Rose Morris catalogue no. for this model. It was just a standard 330, but with an F hole, requested for the British market.

These gtrs will not sound like a modern 330/360 with toasters, because the pickup spacing is different. The 21 fret neck is shorter & so the pickups are further apart. When using both together, the sound is 'rounder', with a better bass response than toasters in the modern spacing.
Remember that toasters were designed for the 21 fret neck & they sound perfect with it. Compare one of these to a 24 fret toaster equipped model & you will see what I mean.
My FG 1997 has the older hotter toasters & the MG one has the 7.4 scatterwounds. I love the hot ones which give real warmth to the sound, whilst the scatterwounds are a little too weak for my taste. I'm trying to get used to them, but I will probably try to swap them for some older hot ones, or get them rewound to the specs of my FG.

admin · Post by **admin** » Sat May 14, 2005 1:59 am

Another nice find for you Anthony. Thanks for sharing a great photo, even if it makes me a bit nervous that the maplego is going to topple.

Michael: With the vibrato it is a 625.

tony_carey · Post by **tony_carey** » Sat May 14, 2005 2:05 am

I know what you mean Peter. I checked, double checked & then checked again!!!!

admin · Post by **admin** » Sat May 14, 2005 2:11 am

Well I guess it just comes easely for you Tony.

tony_carey · Post by **tony_carey** » Sat May 14, 2005 2:14 am

steverok · Post by **steverok** » Sat May 14, 2005 3:54 am

Anthony, I understand about the pick-up spacing with the 21-fret neck. While I'm sure the 21-fret 660 and 620 are fine guitars, to me, Ric's are all about the big semi-hollow body. For this reason, I am starting to become interested in one of these semi-hollow re-issue models, with 21-fret neck and toasters. But, you never really described the SOUND of the 1997 compared to a modern 330. Is it smoother, crisper, chimier, e.g. ? I think we need some A/B sound clips. Willing ?

tony_carey · Post by **tony_carey** » Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

Steve, the hi-gain 24 fret necks are great sounding gtrs & I do not think that toasters are 'better' pick ups. There seem to be two types of toasters...the 'hot' ones & the 7.4 scatterwounds. The hot ones don't sound dissimilar to the hi-gains, but do seem to suit the 21 fret necks better by offering a better 'balanced' sound tone wise, as well as providing the right amount of jangle, compared to hi-gains which can sound a little indistinct (muddy)on a 21 fret neck (this is a comparison noticed when I put hi-gains in a JG 1997).
The scatterwounds are a different proposition entirely. They are a lot weaker in output & as a result, the bottom end suffers. They are great for getting that '60's sound, but you will have to add a little bass on your amp to get the rounded tones of the older ones. I am not sure that I like the scatterwounds & will probably change them in the gtrs that I have with them.

You must understand that my comments are made on my own observations & trials & so many variables are present. For instance, if you turn down the gain on my 'hot' toasters, they begin to sound more like scatterwounds, although the other way around doesn't seem to work quite as well. Also, hi-gains & 24 fret necks are fantastic. Personaly, 24 fret necks & 7.4 scatterwounds are way too 'scratchy' for my tastes, (although I havn't tried the older toasters in a 24 fret neck) but others disagree.....no one is wrong, it depends what music you play.

BTW, sorry to go on about this pick up spacing, (it is becoming a personal crusade of mine) but it is some thing that a lot of people forget when dropping toasters into a modern Ric....it just wont sound like the '60's gtrs.

tony_carey · Post by **tony_carey** » Sat May 14, 2005 4:28 am

In answer to your question Steve & bearing in mind that this is ONLY based on my experiments.....
An older toaster in a 21 fret neck gtr sounds similar, but slightly warmer, with less mid range than a 24 fret hi-gain 330.
A 7.4 scatterwound in a 21 fret neck gtr sounds weaker, with less bottom end & mid range than a 24 fret hi-gain 330.

In a nutshell.....hope this is clear & helpfull!

ken_j · Post by **ken_j** » Sat May 14, 2005 5:14 am

Tony,
Thanks for this reveiw. These pickups seem to have a certain mystery to me at least as far as what they were in different years. I have owned a '96 or '97 360V64, a '87 610 and currently own a '04 650C (not to mention the basses). Out of all three of these I feel the sound of the 360V64 most suits me. If it wasn't for the narrow neck and big body I would still own it today. Whatever version of toaster was used in that era I feel the sound is well balanced. I recently played a 21 fret Rick 360 with the new toasters installed and will have to agree with you on the bottom end.

As far as the high gains on the 610 I found the neck pickup to be a bit muddy and would always end up blending it with a little from the rear pickup.

The 650C is a total different animal that I am still trying to find my sound on. I would think that due to pickup placement and the maple fret board that this would be an extremely bright instrument. This is not the case. I may yet try different pickups on this one, but will first play with some 500k pots or add some resistors in series to simulate 500k pots to see if that is the direction to take. From what you have written I would tend to go towards the high gains considering the 24 fret neck unless I could get the toasters that I have on the V64.

steverok · Post by **steverok** » Sat May 14, 2005 5:38 am

Sounds like a 21-fret with the hotter toasters could be a very sweet sound (as if a regular Ric isn't sweet enough). Until today, I didn't even know there were different toasters. So, what type of guitar would have a 21-fret neck, semi-hollow, with the hotter toasters? Would you have to modify a 360v64 or 1997 to get this sound ? BTW, why doesn't RIC offer a semi-hollow 21-fret neck guitar with vintage pick-ups? I guess the 381, but that is sort of a specialty item, I am talking about a regular 330 or 360 shape.

admin · Post by **admin** » Sat May 14, 2005 9:32 am

Tony: This is a topic that I don't seem to be able to stop talking about. It is hard to argue that the vintage 60s sound is easily reproducible with a configuration that is different from that which produced the sound in the first place. But it is fun trying.

Perhaps it would be of value, however, to compare parameters a bit more closely.

On my 350 Liverpool, which is 24 fret of course, I replaced the high gains with three toasters of the scatterwound variety. My crude ohm meter readings are 5.8 KOhms in the middle and bridge position and the same at the neck save a cap .022 mfd which has the neck circuit resistance at around 8.0 KOhms. I have rewired the 350 so that the middle pickup is on its own volume pot (the old fifth knob).

All of my seven pickup options yield very usuable sounds but I very often use neck and bridge, and all three (turning back on the middle when I do this). I am here or perhaps "hear" to say that this very comfortable player really sings and jangles marvelously even though it is a 24 fret model. I play straight into the brilliant channel of my Korg Vox AC-30 1996 reissue with Celestion Blue Alnico speakers.

While not a fair comparision, my friends 21 fret Model 1997 with toasters (the hotter variety) somewhere near 11 KOhms if I recall, does not jangle any better.

I also want to add that my strings are 3/32nds to 1/8th of and inch about the toasters. I cannot get a grommet between the top of my toaster and my strings. This I feel is one of the musts for the vintage jangle condition, at least on my guitar, the strings being as close to the pickups as they can be. This will give you a thicker sound with the scatterwounds.

I am not convinced that hotter toasters are the answer for the jangle here. They will produce a closer sound to the Gretsch humbucker or a pushed P-90 if they are a bit hotter though.

As always I am most interested in your thoughts and I would also be interested in knowing your playing conditions and the setup of your instrument.

As a last comment I also tend to use flatwounds on my Model 350 at least for the bottom three. You have to be able to bend your strings if you want to bend some ears too!

tony_carey · Post by **tony_carey** » Sat May 14, 2005 3:47 pm

As you know Peter, this is a subject close to my heart. I suppose what I am trying to get across, is that after you get past the 'Ric' sound, there are a myriad of sounds within that classification that are worth exploring in detail & how you get them. A lot of posts that I read seem to suggest that the choice is toasters or hi-gains & I think there is a LOT more to it than that! If I can reason my favourite pick up (the older hotter toaster)& combination (21 fret neck), then others can use the same formula to reason theirs. It might be a different one than mine, but it will suit what they are trying to achieve. I found scatterwounds in a 24 fret neck 360 totally unusable, but others looking for a particular tone will love it! I just think that there is a lot more to this than most players realise & it is worth discussing ideas. Even when you end up with a set of reasons, then the variables come in to play. Different gtrs sound different (even seemingly identical ones), pickups age differently etc etc.

I only own 7 Rics, but they all work for me & I like to be able to plug a gtr in to my amp & not make any adjustments to gain or EQ (except the blend). As a result, I notice changes in this area & give a great deal of thought to the sound of my gtrs & how I can balance them, so that they work with one another. This is the reason that this topic holds so much interest to me!

The reason I like the hotter toasters is because they sound like a hi-gain 24 fret model, but in a 21 fret neck configuration. Dropping hi-gains in a 21 fret gtr doesn't sound the same. I like the 21 fret models because of the thin necks (personal preference & playability) & small headstock (cosmetic preference). I use Rickenbacker compressed round wound exclusively now. I recently bought my 360V64-12 & it had d'addarios on it. Nothing wrong with those, but I was actually disapointed in the sound, even though, being a '91 model, I knew it had the hot toasters. Change to Ric strings & there was the sound.
I play through a Marshall 100w head & either one or two marshall 4x12's.
I normally have all controls set to max, use both p/ups & use the blend extensively to change the tone.

admin · Post by **admin** » Sat May 14, 2005 4:00 pm

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this further Tony. As always I appreciate your detailed comments and the enthusiasm with which you make your points.

Without question the RIC strings are ideally suited to their guitars.

mike381 · Post by **mike381** » Sun May 22, 2005 6:18 pm

Lawton, are you selling your 1997?
The same pic is on e-bay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41439&item=7324245001&rd=1