Lennon's Gibson J160E

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon May 16, 2005 12:29 pm

I am wondering what evidence we have that John Lennon used flat wound strings on his J160E.

I have had Pyramid flats on my Gibson J50 before and they sounded surprisingly good. In the end, however, I could not live with them as they did not have that acoustic sound for which I was looking overall, I would be interested in those who have used flats with the humbucking pickup on the J160E.

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Mon May 16, 2005 2:37 pm

good question.

And if you dont mind me expanding the J160E subject.... a guitar store (Ric dealer) told me recently that the new J160E's are actually superior to the originals because the top is solid while the old ones were laminated. Anyone know about this?

And as for the cheaper Epiphone J160E copies, my advice is to forget it.... I played one once and it sounded just like it felt: cheap.

soundmasterg · Post by **soundmasterg** » Mon May 16, 2005 2:49 pm

The original J160's in the late 50's and early 60's had a solid top and then they switched to a laminated top around '63 or so I believe, but I could be off on when they switched. The new ones have a solid top AND x-bracing, which is more important I think. I'm not sure if the early originals had x-bracing, but the ones after they switched to a laminated top didn't and so they sound kid of lifeless.

I've played new ones and some old ones of all vintages, and I like the sound best of a late 50's one I played. It cost WAY too much for me though...around $2500. The new ones are better than the laminated top ones, but they are hit or miss in my experience otherwise. I've only played one new one that made me want to go and buy it, and I've played at least 10 new ones that were dogs and had no life to them too.

As far as flatwounds on Lennon's J160...not sure there. I think roundwounds were much more available in the US in the early 60's than in the UK, so they may have had roundwounds. But since none of the Beatles was particular about strings, they coudl have put flats on them when changing. They coudl even have had flats and rounds on at the same time for all we know!

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Mon May 16, 2005 3:12 pm

>>I've only played one new one that made me want to go and buy it, and I've played at least 10 new ones that were dogs and had no life to them too.

thats exactly the same thing a friend told me. You really have to search for the good ones.

>>They coudl even have had flats and rounds on at the same time for all we know!

Yup, wouldn't surprize me in the least.

karl_teten · Post by **karl_teten** » Mon May 16, 2005 3:52 pm

The J160E is really an electric guitar with an acoustic sound hole.

I have a photo I can email someone if they want to post it here as late as '65 HELP of Harrison playing his J160E with nickel flats and one wound bronze D string!

You need conductive strings to get a sound out of the P90 on the J160E. Bronze doesn't cut it when plugged up.

The originals had a laminated top and ladder bracing just like a hollow body Gibson electric to help prevent feedback.

I own a 1956 J160E.

$2500 for a vintage J160E is a steal. The '05 book lists them at $4000 for late 50's/early 60's.

The new J160E's, fresh from the factory. have incredibly high factory action set ups.

All new J160E's I have played that have been professionally set up play positively 100% different than how you will find them hanging in a music store.

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Mon May 16, 2005 4:33 pm

here are the pix Karl mentioned

admin · Post by **admin** » Tue May 17, 2005 12:17 am

Kent or Karl, if you could send me the photos by email I would be pleased to post larger verisons here so that we could get a better view of the strings.

admin · Post by **admin** » Tue May 17, 2005 1:29 am

Thanks Karl. I think that the photo, grainy as it is, certainly supports flat wounds were used on this instrument. It would also seem that I Feel Fine was played by Lennon using this acoustic and the tonality also supports the use of the flat wound string.

randyz · Post by **randyz** » Tue May 17, 2005 3:39 am

I bought a NOS '96 Gibson J160E (built in Bozeman, Montana) at the Arlington Vintage Show in 2003. It was a much better player than three or four new J160E's I played that same day. One minor authenticity problem involves the fact that the input jack is through the bottom strap button, unlike old and new J160E's that go in through the side of the body. Otherwise it looks very "Beatle". I got it for $1500. I need to replace the strings, but have been wondering whether to use acoustic or electric strings. The old bronze roundwounds sound awful when I use an amp. I'm sure I'll go with roundwounds because that's all I've ever used on my guitars.

randyz · Post by **randyz** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:07 am

Upon reading my last post, I think I need to clarify my comments. I don't want anyone to think that I'm saying that my '96 guitar is better than all current production J160E's. I haven't played them all, just a few at that one show. I think Gibson is making fine guitars, and I love the SG Classic and the Les Paul Junior that I recently bought new.

360dave660 · Post by **360dave660** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:13 am

does what is described above mean that I could take my '96 epi J200 which has a laminated top, put in a p/up et al like the one on the J160E and put pyramid flats on it, I could get a similar sound ?!???

Perhaps I am asking a stupid question, but, I have learned that in the end there are really none ! Thanks for your patience.

dave lopes

admin · Post by **admin** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:37 am

David: I don't think you are over the top with this suggestion. You may indeed get a similar sound. This would be an interesting experiment. Do you suppose that there will be a modeling amplifier selection for this sound at some point?

Randy: Changing the strings is such a simple and reversible modification. I would give it a try to see what the change is with regard to tonality.

An interesting question for me is, outside of "I Feel Fine" what Beatles' song has a tonality that resembles the J160E with flatwound strings. The very earliest recording of "Love Me Do" recorded on the day after Lennon got his J160E, September 10, 1962, does not sound like flats. Indeed, right out of the box it would be hard to imagine Gibson putting flats on the instrument. Has anyone heard any different?

karl_teten · Post by **karl_teten** » Tue May 17, 2005 12:20 pm

3/4 of the album 'Please Please Me' was recorded with the J160E's either plugged in or acoustic.

There are many questions to how PPM was recorded. Some tracks sound like plugged in electric acoustic tracks mixed with electric guitar tracks (Please Please Me, Twist and Shout) by simple overdubbing.

The album PPM is mostly flatwound J160E.

soundmasterg · Post by **soundmasterg** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:50 pm

Karl, it is interesting what misinformation is out there on most instruments history. I got the info about the older J160's having a solid top from a local luthier shop that I respect quite a bit for teh quality of their work and their knowledge. In this case, maybe they were a bit off, but who knows for sure unless they ahve access to production records or used to work at Gibson. All I know is that the late 50's one I played was MUCH nicer than any new ones I've played. Gibson acoustics tend to sound dark and quiet to me compared to say a Martin D18 or something like that. That doesn't stop me from wanting a J160E one day!

admin · Post by **admin** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:55 pm

Greg: Further to your comment, I continue to be amazed about how little I have learned about the J160E. This is an instrument that is used, I believe without exception, on each and every album released by The Beatles.

I know far more about the Gretsch Duoject and Rickenbacker, for example, that were used far less frequently in their recordings overall than the J160E.