Greg, I'm with you! I like the old ones too!
My J160E is a 1956. It is one of the earliest where the bridge doesn't have the big nickel sized adjustment wheels. Some body a long time ago changed out the tuners with early 60's double ring Klusons. I dropped a vintage ceramic in the bridge. It looks exactly like John and George's '62 Gibsons.
I also play a Martin Custom 15. The Custom 15 was Martin's custom shop version of the pre WWII HD-28 before the vintage series came out in the mid 90's. I have yet to find an acoustic that sounds or plays better.
Between the two guitars it's the best of both worlds.
Lennon's Gibson J160E
I recently picked up an Epiphone EJ-160E and I've come to like it quite a bit. I have never touched the Gibson version, so I am not qualified to compare the two. But, playing the Epi, I do feel the Beatle 'vibe', and I feel I can capture the jangly acoustic sound as well as the electric sound of "I Feel Fine" (especially the feedback!) and the lead notes in "Please Please Me" itself.
My biggest complaint is the high action, as was mentioned before on the Gibsons. Of course, the Epis are coming out of Asia, not Montana, and I haven't had time to get a proper setup yet. I swapped out the heavy strings it came with for some Gibson .10s that I had laying around. It helped the action quite a bit, but thins out the sound. My current favorite flats are D'Addario .11s, so based on what I've read from you folks, I want to give them a try. Still need the pro setup tho!
The Epi might be the cheaper little brother, but it's got the look and the sound for this bedroom studio hacker, so what the heck. Anyway, it saves me money so I can buy more Rics!
Nice thread on the 160s, thanks.
My biggest complaint is the high action, as was mentioned before on the Gibsons. Of course, the Epis are coming out of Asia, not Montana, and I haven't had time to get a proper setup yet. I swapped out the heavy strings it came with for some Gibson .10s that I had laying around. It helped the action quite a bit, but thins out the sound. My current favorite flats are D'Addario .11s, so based on what I've read from you folks, I want to give them a try. Still need the pro setup tho!
The Epi might be the cheaper little brother, but it's got the look and the sound for this bedroom studio hacker, so what the heck. Anyway, it saves me money so I can buy more Rics!
Nice thread on the 160s, thanks.
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karl_teten
- Intermediate Member
- Posts: 552
- Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:09 pm
December 1965 UK Tour
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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Need advice, I have my first Ric on order a 360/12c63. I bought a Gretsch 6119-62HT last year. I've wanted a J160E for sometime but it was not high up on the want scale compared to the Ric and I want a 325c64 and will put a deposit on one soon. I'm getting mixed signals regarding the EJ160E as far as quality is concerned. Would it be better to just wait and save up for the real deal because I may be disappointed in the Epi? Or will the Epi suffice for the interim? Also does the fact that the Epi is a "signature model" add any future value? Thanks for your opinions,this has been a great thread.
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karl_teten
- Intermediate Member
- Posts: 552
- Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:09 pm
If you listen to the stereo mix of Twist and Shout you do hear an acoustic unplugged especially in the first part of the song.
It is either an overdub to thicken the song, like the piano overdubs Martin plays on Misery, or it's the plugged in electric J160E with it's acoustic bleedover in the vocal mic as studio compression opens and closes.
You can hear the same thing in the the song Please Please Me.
It's hard to step out of the paradigm but's it's true.
It is either an overdub to thicken the song, like the piano overdubs Martin plays on Misery, or it's the plugged in electric J160E with it's acoustic bleedover in the vocal mic as studio compression opens and closes.
You can hear the same thing in the the song Please Please Me.
It's hard to step out of the paradigm but's it's true.
As Peter had mentioned in a previous post on this thread. The J160 was predominant on nearly every track on their albums(especially in the early years) and IMO when it wasn't used as the main feature of a particular song, it was used for the basic rhythm track, and then obscured by electric overdubs (purposely). But not obscured enough to where you can still hear it bleeding through.
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Music is too important to be left to professionals.
Music is too important to be left to professionals.
A nice photo of John in the studio with the J160E.
Interesting how the strap was attached to the headstock in those days rather than near where the neck meets the body. This must have restricted Lennon's playing style to a degree.
Also, given this rather primitive guitar chord one has to imagine that there was a level of intereference from this pickup that may have made it difficult to record. Perhaps the need to record the instrument acoustically at times.
Interesting how the strap was attached to the headstock in those days rather than near where the neck meets the body. This must have restricted Lennon's playing style to a degree.
Also, given this rather primitive guitar chord one has to imagine that there was a level of intereference from this pickup that may have made it difficult to record. Perhaps the need to record the instrument acoustically at times.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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soundmasterg
- RRF Consultant
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- Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 1:06 pm
I've read that they often would record a given track acoustically and through an amp with the pickup at the same time, and then mix those together on one track. So it could be both at the same time and you could hear what you might think is mic bleedtrhough and its just two mics mixed together...one acoustic and one electric. Wouldn't surprise me at all, and its one of the nice possibilities with a guitar like the J160E.
I would certainly not rule that out Greg.
That the Beatles, and perhaps Martin, were not completely taken by the sound of the J160E gains some strength from the observation that they moved the P-90 from its original positon to the edge of the sound hole closer to the bridge. Then, back to its original position.
They were probably searching for a thicker sound. Raising the screw pole pieces was also an option but when you do this you get a much thinner sound. Hence, I would argue, the use of the acoustic mike and the amplifier as well.
How often have you identified the acoustic rhythm in the background of a Beatles' recording by its clicking or scratching sound rather than the ring of the chords being played?
It is possible to improve upon the tonality of the P-90 but, if you are searching for the original Beatles' tonality, to do so may not be desirable.
Just in passing, I have a piezo in my Gibson J50 and may add a P-90 to my soundhole to see how close I can get to the sound. As a way of boosting the signal I may swap out the fillister head humbucker polepiece screws at the same time for fatter heads to maximize the magnetic field of this pickup.
When it comes to humbucking pickups, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
That the Beatles, and perhaps Martin, were not completely taken by the sound of the J160E gains some strength from the observation that they moved the P-90 from its original positon to the edge of the sound hole closer to the bridge. Then, back to its original position.
They were probably searching for a thicker sound. Raising the screw pole pieces was also an option but when you do this you get a much thinner sound. Hence, I would argue, the use of the acoustic mike and the amplifier as well.
How often have you identified the acoustic rhythm in the background of a Beatles' recording by its clicking or scratching sound rather than the ring of the chords being played?
It is possible to improve upon the tonality of the P-90 but, if you are searching for the original Beatles' tonality, to do so may not be desirable.
Just in passing, I have a piezo in my Gibson J50 and may add a P-90 to my soundhole to see how close I can get to the sound. As a way of boosting the signal I may swap out the fillister head humbucker polepiece screws at the same time for fatter heads to maximize the magnetic field of this pickup.
When it comes to humbucking pickups, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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O.K., Karl and Uffe, after listening to the PleasePlease Me LP for two hours I have to admit that you are right. After listening especialy to Ask me why I think that Twist and shout is made the same way. The bleed through is acoustical, not from the amp.
But my statement "For me this is "the" sound: 325/Hamburg, bridge p.u. and Vox amp." is right for I saw her standing there and She loves you.
I hope!
But my statement "For me this is "the" sound: 325/Hamburg, bridge p.u. and Vox amp." is right for I saw her standing there and She loves you.
I hope!
Wolfgang,
"I saw her standing there" is no doubt Lennon on the 325, but "She loves you" is J160.
Try recording it yourself, and you will hear it.
The bleed is often the vocal mic picking up the J160, Lennon preferred to play while singing.
"From me to you" is a good example.
I the 325 is capable of making different sounds, but I believe you can distinguise it from the J160 mainly because the different pickup distances from the bridge on the two,-this is what affects the electric sound the most.
Listen to the instrument track (left side stereo)of "All I've got to do" on With the Beatles.
Listen to the first verse; here George plays the Gent alone. On the second verse Lennon joins on the 325. That guitar sound is not made with the J160!! Why? Simply because there's a bridge pickup involved.
Next up on the album is "All my loving". This is a bit more tricky; here you can nail the rhythm guitar part with the 325, but only if you use the neck pickup alone! Could Lennon do that with his first 325? The J160 has only got a neck pickup sound in it's register, so you can get close with this also (but not close enough LOL)
The lead is 100% sure the J160, -the Gent can't make that sound, especially the first notes.
Trial and error and an open mind and you will find the right answers, sometimes you'll be amazed,
but that's all part of the fun...
Best
Uffe
"I saw her standing there" is no doubt Lennon on the 325, but "She loves you" is J160.
Try recording it yourself, and you will hear it.
The bleed is often the vocal mic picking up the J160, Lennon preferred to play while singing.
"From me to you" is a good example.
I the 325 is capable of making different sounds, but I believe you can distinguise it from the J160 mainly because the different pickup distances from the bridge on the two,-this is what affects the electric sound the most.
Listen to the instrument track (left side stereo)of "All I've got to do" on With the Beatles.
Listen to the first verse; here George plays the Gent alone. On the second verse Lennon joins on the 325. That guitar sound is not made with the J160!! Why? Simply because there's a bridge pickup involved.
Next up on the album is "All my loving". This is a bit more tricky; here you can nail the rhythm guitar part with the 325, but only if you use the neck pickup alone! Could Lennon do that with his first 325? The J160 has only got a neck pickup sound in it's register, so you can get close with this also (but not close enough LOL)
The lead is 100% sure the J160, -the Gent can't make that sound, especially the first notes.
Trial and error and an open mind and you will find the right answers, sometimes you'll be amazed,
but that's all part of the fun...
Best
Uffe