More reliable finish ?

rickengrowl · Post by **rickengrowl** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 10:31 am

Following to the problems I experienced with my defective WHT 4003, I'm on the way to have it refunded by my dealer. And I found another dealer who has all models and finishes in stock, immediately available (great guy, indeed).

Now my dilemma is the following : given that I have the choice, what finish should I choose ?
I like MapleGlo, JetGlo and eventually FireGlo (when it fades from near-black to light orange, as seen on the Rickenbacker site bass pages).

Since my hesitation is quite unsolvable, I think I can determine the finish I'll choose regarding its reliability. So I would like to know, in a general way, which one of these finishes does resist best to time ? Which one does keep its gloss best ? Which does fade the least ?

Thanks in advance for your opinions and experiences,

Best.

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 10:58 am

Black will always be black ....however , if you go to any place that has lots of cars ....you will see that they are indeed different shades of black!!!

Why is this ? Because to make black , you use all the colors of the color wheel , and there is usually one color that is a primary color that is strongest ....this gives Gibson their Green look and when combined with clear yellowing , it really stands out.
Fender has a reddish cast .

THere are some that have a blueish cast ....most of them have a polyester outer coat .

Get the color you like ....clear turns to honey ,
Fireglo changes no matter what .Some times it lightens (if exposed to the sun , if you leave it on a stand in front of a window one side fades!)
Sometimes it yellows , and th ered changes to an orange cast/hue .
For more info on Red -burst fading , check out the book "Beauty of the Burst" .It covers the Gibson Les Paul Flame top guitars made from 1957 to 1960 and lots of color changes and why .

Me , I'd get a natural or a Fireglo

Why did they paint it black ? that is why I would not ever buy a black guitar .

rickengrowl · Post by **rickengrowl** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 11:20 am

Thanks Mark,

If I understood correctly, the only finish that _should not_ fade with time would be JetGlo ?

And if I also understood well, you do like the changes of colour with time... Correct ?

Personally I LOVE MapleGlo, but I HATE honey-like colours... I'd be sad there would come a time I would start hating my bass

So I think it will not be a MapleGlo...

My choice is now between JetGlo and FireGlo... Should be JetGlo, unless I did not understand correctly what you wrote...

corey · Post by **corey** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 12:00 pm

I'll chime in too....

I've got a 2000 Mapleglo finish that hasn't changed yet....but as it ages, it will "darken" and as Mark says be more "honey" than the current "light blonde" it is now. I look forward to this change as it will really make the grain of wood stand out more - look at Roger McGuinn's 370/12RM for an example of why Mapleglo rules the earth.

I've got a fireglo on order right now, and again, if you take care of it, it will just become "more rich" with age.

I'll probably get a jetglo finish guitar someday, because I like the black/chrome/rosewood contrast, but again, Mark is right - what type of wood is being hidden under that finish? You can't hide wood defects on mapleglo, and to a lesser extent, fireglo.... The other thing to consider is that Jetglo will show every little scratch, nick or fingerprint VERY obviously.

Good luck with this big decision.

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 7:29 pm

Black is something that is either dirty or you just cleaned it .It will always be that way.

Fireglo is very forgiving and the color changes happen over a long period of time , very gracefully .
Maple ........yes go look at Byrds photos and McGuinn photos .

Honey is the wrong name for it ...I love the look of any era natural maple instrument , look at Gibson's ,Guild's , Martin Spruce faces ....not the re-issue ones .The real thing .The new 'honey' versions are close , but not perfect.Some are pumpkin.

My thing with black is this ....

1- aways looks messy ,
2- why is it painted black ? why is this thing not mapleglo/natural? there are real reasons for it being black ..I know , I was a painter at the factory.

rickengrowl · Post by **rickengrowl** » Fri Mar 08, 2002 11:13 pm

Thanks to both of you !

Sorry but as I'm French, I try do all my best to read and write properly in English, but sometimes there are things I misunderstand, and that was the case. Now I guess it's OK.

Yes, was this JetGlo guitar painted because of colour demand, or because of a defective wood ? Same question for the White one I had, BTW... OK, I have quite understood now. Choosing a "see what happens under" finish is a "more than careful" decision.

Given that I am _VERY_ careful with my instruments (they always go back in their case when I'm finished with a music session), I guess I'll choose a FireGlo.

byrdwatcher · Post by **byrdwatcher** » Sat Mar 09, 2002 3:13 am

Mark, I share Jean's curiosity about the defective wood issue. Are you indeed saying that painted guitars (as opposed to instruments with Mapleglo or Fireglo finishes) have substandard wood? If so, how bad are we talking about? Knotholes? Mismatched grain patterns and/or colors? Wood filler? (Ugh!)

The reason I ask is that I've seen many guitars (from other manufacturers) which have been stripped and refinished. Also, I myself have refinished a number of drums which originally had plastic-covered finishes. While I've seen grain patterns that didn't match or color variations, I haven't noticed anything prominent in terms of poor wood quality.

Just curious to know the score for painted Rickenbackers. What's under the hood, Doc?

Thanks!
Spencer Brown

rickengrowl · Post by **rickengrowl** » Sat Mar 09, 2002 3:37 am

Indeed, I do share my own curiosity about the defective wood issue

Most seriously, something bothers me : most guitar manufacturers ask extra fee (and often expensive) for natural finish. I'm thinking of Fender, EB/MusicMan, and so on.

So my curiosity is sharpened by the fact that the price is always the same for any Rick model, whatever finish you get. So, concerning Ricks only, does this mean that all guitars have high quality woods (even if the very best ones are used for MG or FG) ? Or does this mean that RIC consider that "a 4003 is a 4003 anyway", even if there are huge differences of wood quality from each other guitar ?

dannyboy · Post by **dannyboy** » Sat Mar 09, 2002 4:01 am

And just to add my 2 cents on it...does the quality of the wood have something to do with those "weather cracks" we find on the finish??? I always owned jetglo Rics and that problem was noticed on each guitar. I don't recall seeing those cracks on my friends maple glow?
( Maybe you started a frenzy, Mark??

)!!!
And for Jean: "T'en fait pas mon vieux, j'ai de la difficulté à comprendre moi-même quelques fois...mais j'ai la chance d'être marié à une canadienne anglaise qui m'aide beaucoup !!!

rickengrowl · Post by **rickengrowl** » Sat Mar 09, 2002 5:08 am

Thanks Dan for your message
(ce forum est rempli d'espions francophones, si je comprends bien

I owned 2 JG guitars :
- 1 4001, purchased as new in 1977 then sold in 1980 (hey stupid)
- 1 350 Liverpool, purchased in last October as "new old stock" (as new but dated April 1994), and which is for sale.

As long as I have been owning them, both kept their full gloss. But my guitars neither are exposed to sun rays, nor "sleep" elsewhere than in their cases.

corey · Post by **corey** » Sat Mar 09, 2002 7:58 am

I think what Mark means is that the wood used in any opaque finish (but specifically Jetglo) can have slight flaws or undesirable "marks" in the wood since these will be hidden completely by the paint job. It's not that the wood is "terrible" by any stretch (I believe Mark has said in the past that it's all from the same "grade A" sheets) it's just that the more marked pieces of wood could never be used for mapleglo or fireglo since you'd see every little discoloration or "spot" if you will.

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Sat Mar 09, 2002 9:38 am

Let me make an official statement on what goes under an opague finish .This is true for any maker , not just Rickenbacker.

When you are grading instruments for coloring , the best , most alluring get natural.

the second best get some kind of bursting, This is a fine line that seperates the two .
Some times it is by need (meaning how many orders do you have for these , not the wood itself -I find that weird,)as great wood is NOT every piece.

The next grade is nice wood , but there is a mis match with the pieces , meaning it if fine , just not a book match , or one side has a funny look to it compared with the other side.
These get the typical translucent colors -blue, red , purple, root beer, etc. And also some dark bursting , Tobacco brown burst Walnut burst , autumn-glo etc.

From here we get into good wood that has funny grain to it and splotches of streaky color in it , veins of a different color .These need to be covered up to achieve a finish that will be pleasing .Some of these get dark r=translucent colors , but if they won't cover .......,
This is where solid colors come in .
Some of these guitars are also structural flawed that has corrective measures taken and now are solid ...but cosmetically not perfect .Meaning ...they will NEVER be a natural grade or a bursting grade instrument.

THen we get to the final section of wood....this is where ,someone in the shop , glued up wood that is so mismatched , they may as well of glued yellow , blue and brown pieces together .There is nothing 'wrong' with this , as many people like solid colors ....just don't expect to see nice wood under that type of paint work.
A sub-heading of this final section is for guitars/basses , that had accidents in the wood shop and filler of more than the normal amount was used .

Say 'Larry' , got busy thinking about 'Suzy' and what he was doing that night ....the emotions start going and his attention shifted ....as he placed a guitar onto the pinrouter set up , the alignment was not on perfectly ...... oops! Guess this one will become a BLACK guitar .

Believe me ...........under black you will NEVER find AAAA grade figured maple .Why would you waste it?
If you are paying for beautiful wood , you will see it .
That is why there are solid colors .It is NOT deffective material , it is just cosmeticlly BUTT UGLY sometimes .Not every piece that you get , in your shippment of wood is fantastic , trees are not perfect.
So what do you do with this 'odd wood'?
Solid color is THE answer.

EVERY Guitar maker/company does this .

corey · Post by **corey** » Sat Mar 09, 2002 10:41 am

That very thorough post makes me really rethink ever ordering a solid colour instrument. I'm glad I opted for fireglo instead of jetglo for my 360/12 order.

Thanks again, Mark.

carr · Post by **carr** » Sat Mar 09, 2002 1:00 pm

That posting shouldnt turn you off a solid colour if thats what you like.

Me , I have a jetglo. It sounds good, plays well and I dont give a toss what its like underneath as long as the wood is structurally good

markthemd · Post by **markthemd** » Sat Mar 09, 2002 4:02 pm

Again ...the wood is NOT rotten , it may have only a small defect that would NOT allow it to be fireglo or a burst and /or it could have a streak of color in th emaple that is 'unsightly' .

It does not make it a dog .

However ......I have stripped some solid colored guitars that people want a natural or a burst , only to find a hideous piece of wood working or epoxy fills or bondo etc.
This is NOT on every solid color guitar ....but you have to think about it ..."Why is it a solid color" .I want to know what I am getting , so I have guitars that I can see the wood or the ones that are solid colors ......I painted them .I know what is under the color.