Tony Hatch and Jackie Trent
Tony Hatch and Jackie Trent
Hatch and his spouse Trent wrote, arranged and produced a tremendous amount of material for PYE in London in the 1960s. The massive volume of their work can be seen here.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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I see in the list of songs, the Montanas have been named as the recording artists.
The Montanas spawned Trapeze....from whence Glenn Hughes springboarded to fame via Deep Purple. The Monts were a very talented band switching from pop to rock to almost showband in style. Unfortuantely their recording career was a non event , mainly due to the choice of material.Technically a brilliant band, just missing that slice of luck.
The point of this ramble... Some folk should write for ( and manage) solo acts and not for rock bands..
John
The Montanas spawned Trapeze....from whence Glenn Hughes springboarded to fame via Deep Purple. The Monts were a very talented band switching from pop to rock to almost showband in style. Unfortuantely their recording career was a non event , mainly due to the choice of material.Technically a brilliant band, just missing that slice of luck.
The point of this ramble... Some folk should write for ( and manage) solo acts and not for rock bands..
John
In hindsight, point taken John. Based on Tony Hatch's influence and track record, however, it is now somewhat clearer to me why he was chosen by the Searchers. He was a person of considerable talent and influence. While he may not have completely understood who the audience of the Invasion groups was, he sure did understand what Petual Clark's fans wanted to hear.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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Peter,
Based on Tony Hatch's influence and track record, *** Deleted ***he sure did understand what Petual Clark's fans wanted to hear.
No argument from me on that score.. for her, he was just the right person .
I guess I have a bit of a jaundiced view on the topic .
The band in which I played became a victim of the mohair suit , clean cut look with songs written professional London Based writers and recorded by Les Reed.
Les was a formidable talent in his own field but a writer composer for a 5 piece r & r band he was not.
Our manager used his earlier association with Les to try and lever a new Tom Jones into the market and totally missed what drove the band and, at the time I pulled out , coach loads of fans that used to follow us around.
A case of , to paraphrase Tony Hatch , One mans meat is another mans poison Try that to the melody of " The other mans grass is always greener "
John
Based on Tony Hatch's influence and track record, *** Deleted ***he sure did understand what Petual Clark's fans wanted to hear.
No argument from me on that score.. for her, he was just the right person .
I guess I have a bit of a jaundiced view on the topic .
The band in which I played became a victim of the mohair suit , clean cut look with songs written professional London Based writers and recorded by Les Reed.
Les was a formidable talent in his own field but a writer composer for a 5 piece r & r band he was not.
Our manager used his earlier association with Les to try and lever a new Tom Jones into the market and totally missed what drove the band and, at the time I pulled out , coach loads of fans that used to follow us around.
A case of , to paraphrase Tony Hatch , One mans meat is another mans poison Try that to the melody of " The other mans grass is always greener "
John
John: Did you sing "It's Not Unusual" then?
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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Peter wrote
"John: Did you sing "It's Not Unusual" then? "
Lol..... Me ? I cant sing for Peanuts. The band Nope .. Our manager at the time saw himself as the discoverer of a New Tom Jones based on his desire ( he also 'discovered' George Washington and the Congressmen and had very minor success) but not on the practical realities of what we were doing and wanted to do .
I quit the band when decision was made to record " I ve got my eyes on you " which in reality was a solo number . They went on to record a shocking version of a reasonable ballad called " I cant take no more of your lies" and a more upbeat number called " why shouldnt I ". The first two were Barry Mason /Les Reed collaborations on Chapter One records ( Les Reeds own label) recorded in Wessex Studios ( a converted church).
Such were the politics that another solo singer was given "Ive got my eyes on you " at the same time.... I cant remember his name.
The whole exercise was futile because of this "London Tin Pan Alley syndrome".
The band lost its original audience and never captured a new one and ultimately the band folded.
In August Ill be back In UK and we are reforming temporarily for a couple of sessions and will be wallowing in nostalgic covers of numbers like. You really got me , My Generation , Roll Over beethoven , Plenty of Beatles stuff, Early Stones , Animals ,
I have my kids half believing I used to do this stuff as "work"..Now they will get to see it before Im to old to see where I plug the jack into the amp
Interestingly... the play list has been emailed back and forth many times with almost no changes in style and NO big ballads just additions.. and a few deletions. after 30+ years our tastes have remained pretty much the same
Im not to sure what all this has to do with rics....although I have a couple and so does oneof the other guitarists. Maybe thats qualification enough?
John
"John: Did you sing "It's Not Unusual" then? "
Lol..... Me ? I cant sing for Peanuts. The band Nope .. Our manager at the time saw himself as the discoverer of a New Tom Jones based on his desire ( he also 'discovered' George Washington and the Congressmen and had very minor success) but not on the practical realities of what we were doing and wanted to do .
I quit the band when decision was made to record " I ve got my eyes on you " which in reality was a solo number . They went on to record a shocking version of a reasonable ballad called " I cant take no more of your lies" and a more upbeat number called " why shouldnt I ". The first two were Barry Mason /Les Reed collaborations on Chapter One records ( Les Reeds own label) recorded in Wessex Studios ( a converted church).
Such were the politics that another solo singer was given "Ive got my eyes on you " at the same time.... I cant remember his name.
The whole exercise was futile because of this "London Tin Pan Alley syndrome".
The band lost its original audience and never captured a new one and ultimately the band folded.
In August Ill be back In UK and we are reforming temporarily for a couple of sessions and will be wallowing in nostalgic covers of numbers like. You really got me , My Generation , Roll Over beethoven , Plenty of Beatles stuff, Early Stones , Animals ,
I have my kids half believing I used to do this stuff as "work"..Now they will get to see it before Im to old to see where I plug the jack into the amp
Interestingly... the play list has been emailed back and forth many times with almost no changes in style and NO big ballads just additions.. and a few deletions. after 30+ years our tastes have remained pretty much the same
Im not to sure what all this has to do with rics....although I have a couple and so does oneof the other guitarists. Maybe thats qualification enough?
John
I wrote earlier
"The point of this ramble... Some folk should write for ( and manage) solo acts and not for rock bands.".
I admire The Undertakers stand in not signing with Brian Epstein. That must have been a tough decision. Unfortunately Tony Hatch was probably the wrong choice . Thems the breaks.
Talent isnt always enough.
Sometime it is good management
Sometimes a good song
Sometimes lucky timing
Sometimes just plain luck
Most times its some of all of it but sometimes most of all of it isnt enough.
Persistence has heck of a lot to do with it.
John
"The point of this ramble... Some folk should write for ( and manage) solo acts and not for rock bands.".
I admire The Undertakers stand in not signing with Brian Epstein. That must have been a tough decision. Unfortunately Tony Hatch was probably the wrong choice . Thems the breaks.
Talent isnt always enough.
Sometime it is good management
Sometimes a good song
Sometimes lucky timing
Sometimes just plain luck
Most times its some of all of it but sometimes most of all of it isnt enough.
Persistence has heck of a lot to do with it.
John
John,
Thank you for the 'admiration' in not signing with Brian Epstein. It is, however, misplaced.
The reason that we didn't go with Eppy was that we were already being managed by Ralph Webster, who ran several dance venues, in Liverpool, including the Orrell Park Ballroom.
When John Lennon told us that Eppy wanted to "...manage you's" (Liverpool vernacular) and added that "...he's done f**k all for us, yet!" that made any thoughts that we might have had about ditching Ralph Webster, in favor of Eppy, academic.
Regarding the choice of Tony Hatch as a Producer - we didn't have a choice, he was assigned to us. The truth is that we didn't know anything about the recording process and we just went along with the program. It wasn't until later, when we realized what was happening, that we voiced our concerns, which fell on deaf ears, anyway.
I think that the Searchers were in the same boat as us in that the Producer was assigned and they didn't have a choice. In their case, Tony Hatch turned out to be a better matching of talents.
Thank you for the 'admiration' in not signing with Brian Epstein. It is, however, misplaced.
The reason that we didn't go with Eppy was that we were already being managed by Ralph Webster, who ran several dance venues, in Liverpool, including the Orrell Park Ballroom.
When John Lennon told us that Eppy wanted to "...manage you's" (Liverpool vernacular) and added that "...he's done f**k all for us, yet!" that made any thoughts that we might have had about ditching Ralph Webster, in favor of Eppy, academic.
Regarding the choice of Tony Hatch as a Producer - we didn't have a choice, he was assigned to us. The truth is that we didn't know anything about the recording process and we just went along with the program. It wasn't until later, when we realized what was happening, that we voiced our concerns, which fell on deaf ears, anyway.
I think that the Searchers were in the same boat as us in that the Producer was assigned and they didn't have a choice. In their case, Tony Hatch turned out to be a better matching of talents.
Chris wrote"Regarding the choice of Tony Hatch as a Producer - we didn't have a choice, he was assigned to us. The truth is that we didn't know anything about the recording process and we just went along with the program. It wasn't until later, when we realized what was happening, that we voiced our concerns, which fell on deaf ears, anyway"
Thanks for the info Chris.
Looking back through the eyes of a then 17 yr old it seemed that the record companies were more interested in the established teams, producers writers than the artists. So many poor deals were done for the bands in those days . Our own management and agency deal was so bad that pro working fulltime I earned half of what I was getting working part time semi pro...
Our then manager had the nick name of Dipper . It wasnt until years later that I learned that it came from his habit of "dipping" into the expenses. The naievity of youth .... we thought we were gonna be Rock and Roll stars not Rocked and Rolled until we saw stars * grin *
Thanks for the info Chris.
Looking back through the eyes of a then 17 yr old it seemed that the record companies were more interested in the established teams, producers writers than the artists. So many poor deals were done for the bands in those days . Our own management and agency deal was so bad that pro working fulltime I earned half of what I was getting working part time semi pro...
Our then manager had the nick name of Dipper . It wasnt until years later that I learned that it came from his habit of "dipping" into the expenses. The naievity of youth .... we thought we were gonna be Rock and Roll stars not Rocked and Rolled until we saw stars * grin *
Record companies did employ staff writers and A&R Men (Artist & Reportoire) in part because, being 'on staff' meant that they were employees, and paid a wage rather than a fee with a royalty. This also meant that they had to be kept busy, hence they were assigned projects.
I was in this position somewhat when I worked with Atlantic, in the mid to late sixties. They'd send me a group and I'd cut (produce/arrange/engineer) them and get paid by Atlantic, but not as a production fee, and there was never any mention of a lasting involvement, in the form of a royalty. In fact, my credits on the albums was minimal as credit for A&R was not a normal practice, so I got a lot of "Engineer" credits. I was young and not at all sophisticated in the ways of the music business, so it seemed the 'norm' to me.
As the music business evolved, in the late sixties, the concept of staff A&R Men faded and outside Producers were sought by the record companies. In the long run this worked out better for them as it meant they had access to the best, if they wanted, and didn't have to have anyone on the payroll, whether they were talented or not.
The artists benifited from arrangement this also, in that they now had a choice which - to whatever degree they used it - equated to a measure of artistic control.
I was in this position somewhat when I worked with Atlantic, in the mid to late sixties. They'd send me a group and I'd cut (produce/arrange/engineer) them and get paid by Atlantic, but not as a production fee, and there was never any mention of a lasting involvement, in the form of a royalty. In fact, my credits on the albums was minimal as credit for A&R was not a normal practice, so I got a lot of "Engineer" credits. I was young and not at all sophisticated in the ways of the music business, so it seemed the 'norm' to me.
As the music business evolved, in the late sixties, the concept of staff A&R Men faded and outside Producers were sought by the record companies. In the long run this worked out better for them as it meant they had access to the best, if they wanted, and didn't have to have anyone on the payroll, whether they were talented or not.
The artists benifited from arrangement this also, in that they now had a choice which - to whatever degree they used it - equated to a measure of artistic control.
Chris: Was this the sort of arrangement that you had when you produced the Rascals?
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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Here's what happened: We were working on "Groovin'" and Gene Cornish was trying a bass part. I suggested a guy that I'd met who had played Bass for King Curtis, Chuck Rainey, several months before. Chuck had said to me that he wanted to be a session man, a studio musician.
So, in a leap of blind faith, I brought Chuck in and we had the bass part done just about before the group arrived for the session. This is 'Production'. I also helped put the song together in other ways with them: Vocal layering and effects et cetera and, of course, I did the mix by myself. Sid Bernstein said that, because of the Rascals 'special' relationship with Atlantic, they couldn't give me Production credit, so I ended up being promised that my name would be on the record - and it was! I became the first 'Engineer' to get my name on a 45rpm record.
Now, with the advent of CD's, history is being re-written. There are 14 albums that I've tracked down in their new incarnation as CD's, were my credits are either misrepresented or missing altogether. For instance: I produced the second album for an all-girl band, called Birtha, in the early seventies, and got full credits on the album liner notes. Now it has been re-released on a double CD set (the first and second albums) and the only Producer named is Gabrial Meckler, who produced the first album only, and had nothing to do with the second.
Alaso, now that the Rascals albums have been re-released on CD, all the engineering credits are going to Atlantic's Chief Engineer, Tom Dowd. Tom was not even at Talentmasters Recording studios when I did "Groovin'" and many of their great records. I'm not mentioned except on, I think that it is their fourth album, as "Machine Operater", a job that didn't even exist back in those days!
A sad state of affairs, I think...
So, in a leap of blind faith, I brought Chuck in and we had the bass part done just about before the group arrived for the session. This is 'Production'. I also helped put the song together in other ways with them: Vocal layering and effects et cetera and, of course, I did the mix by myself. Sid Bernstein said that, because of the Rascals 'special' relationship with Atlantic, they couldn't give me Production credit, so I ended up being promised that my name would be on the record - and it was! I became the first 'Engineer' to get my name on a 45rpm record.
Now, with the advent of CD's, history is being re-written. There are 14 albums that I've tracked down in their new incarnation as CD's, were my credits are either misrepresented or missing altogether. For instance: I produced the second album for an all-girl band, called Birtha, in the early seventies, and got full credits on the album liner notes. Now it has been re-released on a double CD set (the first and second albums) and the only Producer named is Gabrial Meckler, who produced the first album only, and had nothing to do with the second.
Alaso, now that the Rascals albums have been re-released on CD, all the engineering credits are going to Atlantic's Chief Engineer, Tom Dowd. Tom was not even at Talentmasters Recording studios when I did "Groovin'" and many of their great records. I'm not mentioned except on, I think that it is their fourth album, as "Machine Operater", a job that didn't even exist back in those days!
A sad state of affairs, I think...