12-saddle bridge tone question

steverok · Post by **steverok** » Wed May 04, 2005 8:34 am

I recently had a 12-saddle bridge installed on my 360/12. While the intonation is very good now, the more I play it, I am noticing some overtones, particularly on the little E and B pairs, which, when plucked together as a pair, produce an almost vibrato-like effect. Strike them individually, you hear some background ringing. Strike them together, and the ringing starts to oscillate. I hear it on either the bridge or neck pick-up, and I believe I hear it unplugged as well. It can be quite bothersome when you strum the guitar rather vigorously, and it does limit my tonal range, since I need to tame the high frequencies to be able to deal with it.

Any similar experiences? I do not recall such overtones when I had the 6-saddle bridge on there. If I look at the springs on my 12-saddle bridge, they look rather large, and rather sloppy, whereas the 6-saddle bridge has nicely defined springs. The guy who did the install believes the springs are rattling inside the bridge. Anyone have any opinions on this ?

wormdiet · Post by **wormdiet** » Wed May 04, 2005 8:47 am

You could always try a roadie fix - stuffing something soft between the springs. at least to isolate them as the source of the problem.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Wed May 04, 2005 8:48 am

Thjis should be pretty easy to check out. Get a length of clear vinyl hose from the hardware store or building center. This should be 3/8" to 1/2" in diameter (smaller is better), and about 2 feet long. Then stick it in your ear. One end, that is, and have a friend hold it in the area of the bridge which you suspect to be rattling, as close as possible without touching anything. This will help you to isolate the area of rattling.

If it is the springs, they can be removed and stretched slightly to increase the tension. This should help.

steverok · Post by **steverok** » Wed May 04, 2005 8:54 am

The springs are nearly touching each other, I can't really stuff anything in between them. I was thinking I could try to use my capo to hold them down, just as a test. I can take a screw-driver, and easily move them around, many of them are not actually taught. They just seem too big anyway. Given that they are not firmly in place, is it likely that it is the springs causing this? I like the idea with the vinyl hose. I want to be methodical, that seems like an interesting idea.

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Wed May 04, 2005 10:03 am

That's characteristic of this bridge, especially the newer ones with the aluminum saddles. Those saddles have to be so skinny, as compared to the six saddle bridges, that they actually bend a tiny little bit.

The steel ones were better in this regard but sounded dead compared to the 6 saddle.

The springs probably aren't big enough to rattle, at least at any frequency range you're likely to hear.

steverok · Post by **steverok** » Wed May 04, 2005 10:25 am

Thank you for your comments, Mr. Hall. Of course, this is all new to me. Should I expect better tone with the original 6-saddle bridge? I would describe the springs on the 12-saddle bridge as "irregular". They are not all taught and snug, I can poke at them and move them around quite a bit. They also seem very close together. I tried to put paper in between the saddles, and was able to do so between adjacent pairs, but this did nothing.

Has anyone tried Ed Roman's ultra-tone 12-saddle bridge ?

http://www.edromanguitars.com/guitar/rickenbacker/ultratone_ric.htm

steverok · Post by **steverok** » Wed May 04, 2005 10:43 am

Ed Roman certainly boasts about the construction of this bridge, but who makes it? One thing that seems goofy to me is that the adjustment screws are flat heads, as opposed to alan screws.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Wed May 04, 2005 11:18 am

To clarify, the picture that Steve posted is not of Ed's bridge.

The framework on Ed's is not a traditional Rick-type HD stamping, but is cast and machined, then chromed.

I don't understand slotted screws, either. Good engineering practice would call for at least Phillips heads, Allens are better.

A screwdriver can slip out of the slot too easily and mar the guitar's surface. Anyone who buys one of these without replacing the screws with Phillips heads or button-head Allens (best) is looking for trouble.

steverok · Post by **steverok** » Wed May 04, 2005 12:25 pm

Yes, that is very sensible Mr Jangle, most would agree. Still, hasn't ANYBODY here used this Ed Roman bridge before ? I know we all love our Ric's, and love to show pictures, but sometimes some of us poor souls need help getting these things playing and singing good !

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed May 04, 2005 12:52 pm

Steve: In my experience the RIC 12 saddle bridge will allow for proper adjustment and intonation. I can see no reason to move to the bridge offered by Ed Roman.

If you are convinced that it is the springs, I would try two things. First take out the strings on the E pair saddles and test E versus B string Pairs. Was it the springs? If so, lengthen the strings a bit and replace them so that they are under greater tension. Examine also the slots made in the saddles on the E and B string pairs. Are the strings well seated in these slots?

steverok · Post by **steverok** » Wed May 04, 2005 2:01 pm

Peter, what I did do was remove the 12-saddle bridge, and put the old 6-saddle bridge back on. I would say the overtones are still there, but less pronounced. I will experiment some more. I guess you should expect a good amount of that from any 12-string, I mean, the little strings always have some overtone, so a 12-string will have more - they make more sound. In a way, it's part of its charm, I guess.

The reason I inquired about the other bridge is that Ed Roman brags about its sturdier construction and superior tone, but who really knows ?

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Wed May 04, 2005 2:21 pm

Well, Ed also brags about these, so draw your own conclusions.

Pea-soup flame!

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed May 04, 2005 2:26 pm

Steve: I like the way you are trying to narrow down the variables. Please keep us posted.

steverok · Post by **steverok** » Wed May 04, 2005 2:57 pm

Sure Peter, I am an engineer by trade, so it's in my nature. Sometimes I get impatient and ****** off, but in this case, I feel more relaxed and curious, maybe it's part of the LOVE. When it's all said and done, I'll know as much about these things as most of you nuts !!

steverok · Post by **steverok** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:11 am

Conclusion : On my 360-12, my 6-saddle bridge produces a tighter tone than the 12-saddle bridge. I recorded my guitar dry, straight into the board, with both bridges. The 12-saddle bridge seems to produce more warbly, chorus-y sort-of metallic-sounding artifacts, while both bridges produce high-pitched oscillations, especially on the B pair. Had I known, I would never have bothered with the 12-saddle bridge. A slight improvement in intonation above the 7th fret or so is not worth any loss in tone, in my estimation. I am curious if anyone else has tried this, and come to a similar conclusion ?

I plan to move the bridge plate, re-intonate the best I can with the 6-saddle, install a trapeze tail piece, and call it my 12.