Toaster Pickups, and phase cancellation

modelcitizen · Post by **modelcitizen** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:00 pm

Hi all,

I bought recently a '79 4001FG lefty online. Bass has a curious assortment of parts...new saddles, C64 (or v63) lefty pickguard, v63/C64 knobs, toaster in the neck (body routed to allow the closer position), horseshoe in the bridge (looks like a C64 surround).

Now, i've strung this puppy right-handed (it had been once before, badly, and really needs a new nut, but that's for another day...) and it plays utterly superbly - mojo for days, moreso than my 4003 and 4008.

Now, the problems i'm having are with the pickups. The horseshoe is showing just over 10K, whereas the toaster is only giving about 6.1K (aren't they supposed to output just over 7K?). The toaster has 6 poles, and is slightly longer than the toaster in my 4008 (so not perfectly centred with the neck, but fits perfectly in the un-modified hole in the pickguard). Was this supposed to be a 4-pole toaster, or are all toasters 6-pole?

The toaster has pretty flaccid output compared to the horseshoe, but the main issue is that when both pickups are cranked, phase cancellation occurs and all girth is lost. Roll back the volume on either pickup a little and the other pickup comes to life.

I've re-wired the harness (pots seem OK, can't tell easily whether they're 250K or 500K though) and everything looks primo inside, and follows the correct Ric wiring diagrams. Has the toaster simply been wired incorrectly, and the connections have to be reversed? It outputs 1 white ("hot") wire and two earths (one to the pickup base, the other to the common earth in the harness).

Sorry for the long spiel, but i'm itching to figure out what's wrong and get it 100%...i'm had a dream for a while to own a LH strung RH, but with vintage pickups.

thanks!
neil.

seth_lorinczi · Post by **seth_lorinczi** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:10 pm

Hmm...from what I recall, all toasters are 6-pole. There's a difference in the depth of the pole pieces underneath the pickup, but I think that change was made in the late '60s. Showing 6.1 vs. 7 ohms doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

As for the phase cancellation, all my Rics exhibit that characteristic. I don't think it's dependent on the position of the pickup (1/2-inch or 1-inch spacing) but rather a strictly electrical cancellation. I typically roll back the neck pickup just enough to get full volume....

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:38 pm

put a high gain in the neck or a new toaster and it will sound better ... the toaster should be 7.4 k ohms ... a modern high gain will be about 11k ohms ...

modelcitizen · Post by **modelcitizen** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:50 pm

Trouble is that finding a hi-gain or toaster (or anything Ric) in New Zealand is difficult...hence the online purchase!

And if you can, the prices are nasty...$3000 for a ratty condition '80s 4001LH?

My 4003 also has a dead (well, significantly lower output) hi-gain bridge pickup currently, and i'm also in a bind in that the easiest/cheapest option will be to either re-wire it or replace it with a Jazz p/u (not the best for sure). Unless someone has some old p/u's for sale?

I love the sound of the toaster though...my 4008 (as a 4-string) with it's neck toaster sounds much nicer than the 4003 with hi-gains all round...

Does anyone have a solution for the phase cancellation? It's definitely electrical, nothing to do with pickup placement. I'd rather try and sort it myself rather than pay a techie to do so.

ken_j · Post by **ken_j** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:18 pm

Invert the wires on one pickup and see if it improves.

jps · Post by **jps** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:02 pm

I have a toaster that is 6.4K Ohms and a V63 horseshoe that reads about 10.15K Ohms that together sounds very nice. Individually the HS is hotter but tonally the toaster adds just the right amount of bottom to the total sound even though the output drops a bit with both full on, not really a problem, however. Sometimes I will roll back the toaster volume a bit just enough for the HS to be more prominent in the sound.

I agree, see if the two pickups are just out of polarity with each other.

All toasters are six magnet pickups, but they work great for bass with good even string balance.

modelcitizen · Post by **modelcitizen** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:54 pm

Cool, good to hear my setup isn't too out of whack!

I agree Jeffrey, the toaster does add that magical amount of "soft" low-end to round things out. Problem is that with both p/u's cranked, there's a horrible drop in output and all-round girth, so i've just been using the HS by itsself so far (which promotes a little overly-midrange sound that doesn't record that well).

I think i'd need to replace the current Volume pots with Linear ones (or smaller value Logs), cause the current ones are more-or-less on or off - very hard (nay, impossible) to roll off just a little volume to keep the tone nice.

So to swap the polarity, just the white and earth need swapping right? What's the deal with the two earth screens from the toaster - common earth or are these the opposite phases?

Thanks for your help guys!

soundmasterg · Post by **soundmasterg** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:27 pm

Both of the new toasters I got a year or two ago only measured 6.2k new, so I don't think they are that consistant, or maybe they are losing strength or something. I haven't tried them in anything yet but I'm sure they'll sound fine.

jps · Post by **jps** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:15 am

I wouln't worry too much about the readings as long as there is adequate output.

The braided shield is split to the pickup coil and to ground the case of the pickup.

admin · Post by **admin** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:59 am

Jeff: I can't find the other thread in which you asked me about the toaster I sent to you during our pickup trade. It was ordered as a new scatter-wound toaster of the 7.4 KOhm variety, however, consistent with Greg's post above, it measured very close to 6.2 KOhm range.

jps · Post by **jps** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:10 am

Very interesting!!! It looks so much like a real vintage toaster, that perhaps they sent you a '60s ones that happened to be around the factory. I am extremely happy with it's tone!

Have you done anything with the one I sent you yet?

admin · Post by **admin** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:19 am

Yes I sure have Jeff.

It is now in the bridge position of my 350 and it has made a surprising difference. A full 5.0 KOhms hotter than its predecessor, it allows for a nice jangle but rocks out beautifully as required. For lead work it still works as nicely as the high gain at the bridge. But plenty of jangle. The combination of the hot toaster in the bridge and the high gain at the neck is a very sweet sound and classic Rickenbacker. The middle pick up is a high gain as well and with its own volume control offers very rich tonal options with the neck and middle and bridge and middle. All pickups on, but volumes turned back just a touch is a full body tonality.

Probably by now you are sorry you asked me about it. But thanks for a fast and terrific trade. We will have to try it again sometime.

jps · Post by **jps** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:18 pm

Sorry? Not at all. I like hearing detailed descriptions of these kind of things, something I myself am not too good at. I'm glad it worked as you hoped! It is wonderful how we can try all these different pickup types with minimal work to the instruments and get "the sound" we all desire.