Who's The Best?

ozover50 · Post by **ozover50** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:14 pm

Would Pete have got the "Thomas The Tank Engine" gig? Probably not......

Actually, there have been no new episodes of that since Arafat departed, either............

admin · Post by **admin** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:23 am

Howard: A good line. We will have to wait for the Anthology before we can decide if you are on the right track or not.

Karl: Excellent comments. Adding these to your previous post it would seem that your two-factor model has grown with the addition of stress and management factors.

You make interesting observations about Epstein and Lennon. Brian Epstein was out to make this venture a success and without him The Fab Four may have not have made it ahead of The Searchers, Billy J. Kramer or Gerry and the Pacemakers. I wonder, was Epstein sophisticated enough to appreciate that their best efforts of the day could be keeping them away from stardom? Was Lennon truly troubled by his relationship with Cynthia? Could this have lead to Pete's demise? Your insightful comments have certainly raised the bar and provided us with more questions to consider.

Understanding the motivation for the actions of people under stress may not be rocket science. I would argue, however, that it is a good deal more complex.

Thinking about our discussion here, I still wonder what it is about The Beatles, that has us intrigued by their behaviour, attempting to understand their actions of more than 40 years ago.

steve_hershberger · Post by **steve_hershberger** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:24 am

Interesting discussion here! I've got tons of old boots on cassettes, including the Decca sessions, and I think Pete was a good drummer. Seemed like he played well enough with the rest of the band at the time.

In fact, from what I've read over the years (you know, that Ringo was "better" etc.), I always kind of thought that Ringo might've been *slightly* better in a technical sense at the time, but still Pete was OK enough in that respect. At that time, anyway...

So now we get further down into specifics... If Ringo had a kit that was better quality than Pete's, that's definitely a plus. And it'd really be more attractive to J, P, & G when they're wanting to put together a "professional sounding" band. It's like any other kind of gear - cheap stuff ultimately sounds "cheap" in a lot of respects - no matter how good the musician is who's playing it.

Yeah, I know that musicianship is the MAIN thing, but better quality gear really CAN make a difference in a lot of cases...

I also agree with all the thoughts on various reasons of why Pete "didn't fit in." I've got a feeling that that's one question that can never be answered. It's just "one of those things" I guess.

But, all that said, here's a couple ideas as to why Pete might've been in the band in the first place...

First of all, he had a drum kit and could actually PLAY them. At the time he was asked to join the Beatles as a member, they (the band) were going through a period of utilizing any drummer they could round up at the time. We all know what that kind of thing is like, so having a "regular" or "dependable" drummer would be seen as an asset, at least to alleviate the worry of lining up a player who'd be able to make it to any given gig.

Second, and probably most important, Pete's Mom owned a club where they could play. Talking about a regular gig they could count on. And what band wouldn't want a place where they *knew* they could play whenever, or as often as, they wanted to?

To me, that's a main reason why Pete was in the band for as long as he was.

Steve

admin · Post by **admin** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:17 am

Enter Mona Best and a guaranteed venue. Interesting thoughts about Pete Best Steve.

I have often wondered how significant Mona Best's role was in Pete's relationship with John, Paul and George. It seems reasonable that in the very early days that a place to play was by no means insignificant.

Also, your idea that Pete was not the only port in a storm, but the only reliable port with quality equipment makes sense as well.

That Pete was a part of the group for these reasons and not for his genuine role as a talented drummer is a sad but commonplace circumstance of the day it would seem.

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:07 am

yup yup and yup.... and I guess we all agree that the way JP&G sacked Pete was pretty much a low point in the Beatle legend.

In his book, Pete describes seeing the Beatles only one or two more times when they were on the same bill (I'll need to check the book "A Diary" about this). If I remember right, Pete said that no words were exchanged... just an icey silence.

And nobody has mentioned Pete's appearance on "I've Got a Secret" (March 30 1964) when he tried to pass off the lie that it was his decision to leave the group (his caption at the beginning of the show said "I left my job two years ago"). Understandable, I suppose. At the time of that TV show, the Beatles had (of course) become an international phenomenon and Pete was ashamed to admit that he'd been kicked out.

there is some mildly interesting discussion of this whole thing on the Pete Best Forum:

http://www.petebest.com/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=12&TopicID=356&get=last

karl_teten · Post by **karl_teten** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:45 pm

I hope I didn't come off too crass. Psychology is a science. The Beatles lives in the summer of 1962 involved a lot of psychology.

Coming from a 'Lennon' standpoint, if I was in a band that showed great potential, a manager that believed in me and my girlfriend pregnant at the same time, I would have had to make some heavy decisions.

Outside of Liverpool, The Beatles were nothing. I'm sure Lennon was thinking of what his options of supporting a family outside of the music business were, which was basically painting business logos on store windows around Liverpool.

If I was in Lennon's shoes and a record label sat my group down and said, " sorry but we feel your drummer is incompetent", it would have been NEW DRUMMER TIME!

admin · Post by **admin** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:08 am

Not at all Karl. I especially like the way you have personalized the circumstances, to a degree, drawing in part from your own experiences with band dynamics. This has allowed for a deeper understanding of the frustrations that The Beatles and many other groups may have faced trying to reach the top. The pressures must have been considerable.

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:24 am

When George Martin said "sorry but we feel your drummer is incompetent (for the studio)" I think that was just the last straw in a process that had been going on for some time.

As has been said, George Martin was not thrilled with Ringo's drumming either. My theory (MHO) is that George Martin taught the Beatles a lot but also the flip side is true..... that the Beatles also taught Martin and that Martin's classically trained musical ear had a lot to learn about rock'n'roll hand how it doesn't always need to stay metronome-perfect to sound good.

oh well... I think we all agree that Pete getting the boot was the final piece in the puzzle and that it was needed for the Beatles to reach the heights they did.

atomic_punk · Post by **atomic_punk** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:23 pm

Didn't George Martin feel so sketchy about Ringo that he had Alan White play on their first single?
My opinion of Martin is that it was a magical combination. They took him into the rock & roll realm, and he brought his world into theirs and made them sound so much better as a result.

atomic_punk · Post by **atomic_punk** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:26 pm

Wow, I just read the rest of this thread and I am really out of my depth here! I have nothing new to add to this discussion, just a lot to learn, it seems...

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:42 pm

To this day (or at least recently), Ringo will joke that it took him a long time to forgive George Martin for that Andy White / Love Me Do thing. I think its still a bit of a sore spot to Ringo. After all, at that time he had been an established rock'n'roll star for years in the Liverpool/Mercy scene.

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:45 pm

>>>>>And Ringo was and IS a great drummer. I've yet to play with any drummer who has the power and simplicity of Ringo, although some come close. He is a master of the "rock" ride cymbal. He's funny, too. (Dave Molter)

hey Dave, can you tell us more about how/what/when/where/ you got a chance to play with Ringo?

wayang · Post by **wayang** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:15 pm

Alan White or Andy White? I confess I've never heard of anyone playing with them between Pete and Ringo, and certainly not Alan White, if it's the Alan White I'm thinking of...

revolver323 · Post by **revolver323** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:41 pm

Brammy: I never got to play with Ringo, but my friend and former roomie Steve Dudas has and does play guitar with Ringo and got big credit from Ringo for his songwriting and playing on "Choose Love." However, what I was saying, albeit ineptly, is that I've played many Beatles songs in many bands with many drummers for many years and none of those drummers had mastered Ringo's technique. "Slow Down" is a good example of a song that goes nowhere unless the drummer plays it the way Ringo did. A couple came very close, but most of 'em played way too much and hadn't figured out how to use a ride cymbal correctly. It's way easier to copy McCartney's bass lines and George and John's guitar style than it is to figure out the Ringo thingo.

winston · Post by **winston** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:15 pm

Agreed Dave, Ringo is a great drummer.

So now I repeat my point from an earlier post Ringo was Liverpools best drummer and Eppie and the boys stole him from Liverpools top band. He also had the best kit money could buy.

The fact that they managed to get him to leave Rory Storm was big news that managed to get attention outside of their home town. Epstein was a genius at manipulating events and getting top press coverage. He was in fact a bit of a spin doctor.

Pete was the boy next door who had a dream. Ringo was already living that dream to some extent. He was on his way no matter what.