Obviously many of us got into Rics, if not playing bass, because we were influenced by the sound and playing talent of Chris Squire and/or Geddy Lee. I'm no exception. However, having owned a 4001 back in the 70's and now being the proud owner of a 4003, I'm still mystified as to why I can't dial in that sound.
My 4001 had flatwounds, and that certainly was a factor. I've searched for and uncovered info on Squire's past and present rigs. I know his 4001 has different pickups than today's 4003, and the neck was shaved at some point. I've heard that one aspect of the sound was his high volume. I'm reading with great interest and some confusion about the c3 capacitor.
So my questions are;
If you had a 4003 and wanted to emulate the sound as closely as possible, what would you do to get it? Strings, amps, speaker cabs, effects etc. Is a pickup replacement and/or cap installation a must? Is it necessary to run the bass in stereo, or have you been able to get a good representation with one amp? What sort of amp and speaker characteristics help or hurt? (I'm assuming it's not a specific amp, since Squire used Marshalls Fenders and Ampegs through the years).
This is one of those little things that's seemed to elude me for a very long time. Even though I'll never play like them, it would be cool to at least know how to sound like my hero's....
Getting the Squire/Lee Sound
Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4
Well---
For Geddy Lee, in those days (ca.1979-82) he was mainly playing through a component system using Ashley SC-40 pre-amps and Furman Sound PQ-3 EQ's, powered through BGW 750C power amps, and a little compression. This went through Ampeg V4-B bottoms with 2 JBL E-140 speakers each. Double all this X 2, and you'll have Geddy's 'Moving Pictures' tour setup. IMHO the JBL's are a vital part of this chain.
Check your 4003 to see if it has a .0047 cap soldered into the wiring. My 1979 4001LH does, and it makes the diff on hi-end.
For Geddy Lee, in those days (ca.1979-82) he was mainly playing through a component system using Ashley SC-40 pre-amps and Furman Sound PQ-3 EQ's, powered through BGW 750C power amps, and a little compression. This went through Ampeg V4-B bottoms with 2 JBL E-140 speakers each. Double all this X 2, and you'll have Geddy's 'Moving Pictures' tour setup. IMHO the JBL's are a vital part of this chain.
Check your 4003 to see if it has a .0047 cap soldered into the wiring. My 1979 4001LH does, and it makes the diff on hi-end.
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gaboik
I agree, removing the .0047 cap takes away from the Rick twang that we have learned to love from listening to Squire and Lee. I know for a fact that prior to the Ashly gear, Geddy Lee was using Ampeg SVT's at the time of the 2112 album. I saw Rush in late 76, and I was sitting very close to Geddy Lee. I noticed that he was using the two SVT amps, and he had this home made pedal board that somehow changed the sound of his Rick at any one given point. I don't know the specifics, but it did contour the lows a bit in exchange for some more Rick twang. At the encore, he whipped out this bass that was shaped like a tear drop, and I strongly remember that the bass tone went to hell at that point. It sounded real bad. Whereas the rick filled all the holes when ever Alex Lifeson would solo. I personnaly feel that the Jazz Bass didn't do him any justice either. It may have worked for him in the studio, but if you saw them live, the Jazz just didn't cut it like the rick did, especially in a trio.
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gaboik
I agree, removing the .0047 cap takes away from the Rick twang that we have learned to love from listening to Squire and Lee. I know for a fact that prior to the Ashly gear, Geddy Lee was using Ampeg SVT's at the time of the 2112 album. I saw Rush in late 76, and I was sitting very close to Geddy Lee. I noticed that he was using the two SVT amps, and he had this home made pedal board that somehow changed the sound of his Rick at any one given point. I don't know the specifics, but it did contour the lows a bit in exchange for some more Rick twang. At the encore, he whipped out this bass that was shaped like a tear drop, and I strongly remember that the bass tone went to hell at that point. It sounded real bad. Whereas the rick filled all the holes when ever Alex Lifeson would solo. I personnaly feel that the Jazz Bass didn't do him any justice either. It may have worked for him in the studio, but if you saw them live, the Jazz just didn't cut it like the rick did, especially in a trio.
At least one of Ged's Rick's had a Toaster on the neck at the .495" location, plus the Badass bridge over a blank-off plate. This seemed to be a transitional unit, viewable on the AFTK sleeve. The sound seems, to my ears, recogniazable on AFTK, HEM, & PW. The bridge looked like a Hi-Gain.
My ESL VideoCD shows him playing a 4001 with two Hi-Gains (Neck P/U @ .995")
Probably doesn't help a bit, eh?
My VPU-Modified 4003S gets mighty close (it has the cap).
Garry
My ESL VideoCD shows him playing a 4001 with two Hi-Gains (Neck P/U @ .995")
Probably doesn't help a bit, eh?
My VPU-Modified 4003S gets mighty close (it has the cap).
Garry
The ideal mix leaves the bass player louder than the rest of the band put together!
This does help a lot, thanks guys. And anyone else who has other ideas, facts, opinions please don't be shy!
I'm definitely going to try the capacitor. I've got the bright idea of trying to see if I can wire it for either cap/no cap by using a magnetic reed switch under the guard. That way there's no external switch...I'd like to keep the look original. Hmm, while I'm at it, maybe mount the cap in a socket so different values can be swapped out.
I'm definitely going to try the capacitor. I've got the bright idea of trying to see if I can wire it for either cap/no cap by using a magnetic reed switch under the guard. That way there's no external switch...I'd like to keep the look original. Hmm, while I'm at it, maybe mount the cap in a socket so different values can be swapped out.
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gaboik
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mortivan
Hey, interesting thought about using a reed switch!
I agree that the cap. is essential. I also believe that decent equalization is important too. The first hint of "the sound" from my '94 4003 was when I finally bought an amp with an EQ and built-in compression. When I knocked down the bass and mid, there it was!
A new stock Ric through a basic amp setup is way too boomy. Try the cap. on the treble pickup, dial down the bridge pickup a bit, and make sure you have at least basic equalization capabilities.
Later, you can shell out $700 for an original Maestro Brassmaster like the one Chris used
Geddy used a killer combination of miked amplification and direct injection. Here's a thought: think of "Tom Sawyer." The bass is a old Fender J-Bass all the way. Not quite a Ric, but damn close! Amazing, eh?
I agree that the cap. is essential. I also believe that decent equalization is important too. The first hint of "the sound" from my '94 4003 was when I finally bought an amp with an EQ and built-in compression. When I knocked down the bass and mid, there it was!
A new stock Ric through a basic amp setup is way too boomy. Try the cap. on the treble pickup, dial down the bridge pickup a bit, and make sure you have at least basic equalization capabilities.
Later, you can shell out $700 for an original Maestro Brassmaster like the one Chris used
Geddy used a killer combination of miked amplification and direct injection. Here's a thought: think of "Tom Sawyer." The bass is a old Fender J-Bass all the way. Not quite a Ric, but damn close! Amazing, eh?
I think one of the important parts of the early Geddy sound is distortion. Not just distortion, but mixed with a clean bright sound to keep the note fixed in one place. The boss bass overdrive pedal can sort of do it, if you want to do it with one amp and a mono bass. For recording my favorite method is to split the signal out of a mono bass with a a/b box run one side into a suitable overdrive and then into the amp and mike it up. The other side is then put into a sansamp Gt2 and then run into the desk. Then blend the two signals together till your ear is pleased with the results! This works equally well on a Ric as it does a Steinberger. Another hint is to have a bit of nail on your fingers!
The Squier sound is a bit harder to get. I think the right bass has a lot to do with it. a 4003 can get close but the pickups are a little overwound and won't let the tone of the wood get through. I'm not sure if the cap has a lot to do with it either, since 80% of the 64 4001s sound is the neck pickup. The hardest part is to use a bass that sounds sweet in the low end and ballanced and warm in the top end. Use a clear amp setting, A tiny bit of overdrive, A touch of compression, correct picking and once again plenty of volume.
This may not be the correct way of doing it, but it works ok!
The Squier sound is a bit harder to get. I think the right bass has a lot to do with it. a 4003 can get close but the pickups are a little overwound and won't let the tone of the wood get through. I'm not sure if the cap has a lot to do with it either, since 80% of the 64 4001s sound is the neck pickup. The hardest part is to use a bass that sounds sweet in the low end and ballanced and warm in the top end. Use a clear amp setting, A tiny bit of overdrive, A touch of compression, correct picking and once again plenty of volume.
This may not be the correct way of doing it, but it works ok!
I confused Faraday's cage, with Schrodinger's cat box....
John,
On a bass, there is no such thing as "too boomy".
All-a y'all,
Not to diss anyone, but, as long as you keep Hi-Gains on your bass, you're hosed as far as getting any good sound; plus, my firm belief, based on my experience converting my 4003S, is that vintage reissue pickups, plus the cap, resolves John's "boomy" concerns.
Garry
On a bass, there is no such thing as "too boomy".
All-a y'all,
Not to diss anyone, but, as long as you keep Hi-Gains on your bass, you're hosed as far as getting any good sound; plus, my firm belief, based on my experience converting my 4003S, is that vintage reissue pickups, plus the cap, resolves John's "boomy" concerns.
Garry
The ideal mix leaves the bass player louder than the rest of the band put together!
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mortivan
Hi Garry,
Hmmm.
With _anything_, the possibility of too "boomy," or too "trebley," or too "midrangey" is real IMHO.
For that matter, everyone has a different "hearing curve." Anyone that went to an Audiologist can confirm that the chart they create (of your hearing response) is identical to a left-right chart of a graphic equalizer's settings.
If you're looking for the "sound," I think (IMHO) the a new stock Ric through a basic bass amp setup is "too boomy" for what you're looking for.
If you're not looking for a specific sound, then maybe you would not even think "too boomy." But, some of us are looking for a particular sound.
Thanks.
Hmmm.
With _anything_, the possibility of too "boomy," or too "trebley," or too "midrangey" is real IMHO.
For that matter, everyone has a different "hearing curve." Anyone that went to an Audiologist can confirm that the chart they create (of your hearing response) is identical to a left-right chart of a graphic equalizer's settings.
If you're looking for the "sound," I think (IMHO) the a new stock Ric through a basic bass amp setup is "too boomy" for what you're looking for.
If you're not looking for a specific sound, then maybe you would not even think "too boomy." But, some of us are looking for a particular sound.
Thanks.
Charlie, now I'm tossed between my reed switch idea and your pot/switch idea. The only downside to the pot/switch would be changing the original equipment (the pot), but this is admittedly trivial.
It appears obvious to me now that there's no single component that will make or break attempts to emulate this sound. That's always been in the back of my mind; if Geddy can get his sound from a Jazz, it's not a proprietary thing. That's not necessarily a good thing; wouldn't it be great to just have a stomp box that set us up? Add a Chris/Geddy toggle...nirvana!! Hey maybe Line 6 can add that to the Bass POD....
One thing I can say for certain, an SWR Workingman's combo is NOT the route to nirvana! While there may not be such a thing as 'too boomy', there certainly is such a thing as 'too clean'. I had hoped that it would be a good clean channel amp, but it lacks the balls in the bottom end to be useful for the neck pickup. It really sounds no differnt than DI'ing into a PA. A side-by-side comparison in the music store (what I should have done in the first place) showed that even a new Fender Bassman had more tone and personality. Live and learn.
It appears obvious to me now that there's no single component that will make or break attempts to emulate this sound. That's always been in the back of my mind; if Geddy can get his sound from a Jazz, it's not a proprietary thing. That's not necessarily a good thing; wouldn't it be great to just have a stomp box that set us up? Add a Chris/Geddy toggle...nirvana!! Hey maybe Line 6 can add that to the Bass POD....
One thing I can say for certain, an SWR Workingman's combo is NOT the route to nirvana! While there may not be such a thing as 'too boomy', there certainly is such a thing as 'too clean'. I had hoped that it would be a good clean channel amp, but it lacks the balls in the bottom end to be useful for the neck pickup. It really sounds no differnt than DI'ing into a PA. A side-by-side comparison in the music store (what I should have done in the first place) showed that even a new Fender Bassman had more tone and personality. Live and learn.
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titanic_tony
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I read somewhere that Geddy likes his action real low - to the point where you'll start to get fret buzz/rattle. Also, use Rotosound Swing Bass strings, and play real agressively. Because of the agressive play, some compression, and/or a tube amp will get you close to his sound.
I think most of his sound is in his fingers - he gets a similar sound whether he uses the Ric, or the Jazz or the Wal or the Steinberger.
I think most of his sound is in his fingers - he gets a similar sound whether he uses the Ric, or the Jazz or the Wal or the Steinberger.
I agree--his fingers are a big part,although his style has changed a bit thru the years--he tends to 'waggle' his index finger back and forth in an up-and-down fashion as of late for sixteenth-note playing; he used to be more percussive in his approach.
On this tour, he is using as Sans Amp and a cabinet modeler---My two cents on this is I don't like the result live. I am used to hearing him with much definition in his mix thru the house system, and it had NO presence whatsoever, but I could tell it had bottom; the signal was HEAVILY compressed. I know on previous tours his bass could be cleanly heard when using real amps/cabs..it's definitely not the bass in this case; the Fender is quite nice as are his Rickenbackers and Wals. Ged, if it ain't broke, don't fix it man!!! How about a couple of WT-800's, or WAY back to the SVT's???
On this tour, he is using as Sans Amp and a cabinet modeler---My two cents on this is I don't like the result live. I am used to hearing him with much definition in his mix thru the house system, and it had NO presence whatsoever, but I could tell it had bottom; the signal was HEAVILY compressed. I know on previous tours his bass could be cleanly heard when using real amps/cabs..it's definitely not the bass in this case; the Fender is quite nice as are his Rickenbackers and Wals. Ged, if it ain't broke, don't fix it man!!! How about a couple of WT-800's, or WAY back to the SVT's???