HIgh Gains vs. Toasters

endlessbassic · Post by **endlessbassic** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:15 pm

Hi All.. i know this is a very subjective area, especially when it comes to actually describing sounds, but i'm wondering if anyone can provide a comparison of the sound of toaster
p/u (more specifically, the neck p/u) and a high-gain (what i currently have).. i'm thinking about buying a scatterwound reissue toaster for my '75 4001FL, but thought i'd consult my fellow Ricken-wisemen first! I'm also curious to hear if anyone tried the same switch and went back to high-gains.. Thanks in advance! Hope everyone is well!

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:40 pm

the toaster is cleaner and not as hot as a high gain .... the high gain growls more and breaks up from distortion sooner ... both make good neck pickups ...

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:43 pm

Also I made a high gain to toaster conversion pickup ... actually I have made more than one I just have one now ... I take a 6 pole high gain pickup and pull the iron slugs and replace them with steel rods or alnico rods and put on a toaster cover ... so basically it is a high gain that looks like a toaster ... losing the mushroom shape iron slugs makes them a little quieter ... so the sound is somewhere between a high gain and a toaster ... the scatter winding makes a toaster "jangley" sounding ... the scatter winding cancels some frequencies ... also try 250k ohm volume and tone pots ... a 4001/4003 usually has 500k ohms tone pots and 250 k ohm volume pots ... the 250 k ohm pots will warm up the ric sound ... I wired a 75 azureglo with a bridge high gain and a neck toaster and all 250k ohm pots and it sounded awesome ...

endlessbassic · Post by **endlessbassic** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:52 pm

Interesting.. i never thought to try lower impedance pots, but that's a fine idea and it does make a lot of sense! thanks, Jeff!

rickenbrother · Post by **rickenbrother** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:51 pm

I installed a new toaster pickup in the neck position of my '75 4001 FL. I think it sounds excellent in the fretless.

jps · Post by **jps** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:30 pm

I think two toasters sound excellent in a fretless!

bob_atherton · Post by **bob_atherton** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:30 pm

Interesting stuff. I have got a fretless coming very soon with a high gain. If I swapped it over to a toaster, is it just a case of just changing the PU, or is there more to it? Thanks

ricosound · Post by **ricosound** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:24 am

Jeff, Who did the conversion pickguard on your fretless for you?

david_schwab · Post by **david_schwab** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:39 am

I had just emailed Jeff Rath this very question! In my case I had a toaster in my '73 4001 that I'm restoring. I don't have the toaster any longer, and was wondering which to use... although I like the look of the toaster, I remember it being a bit on the thin side.

Jeff's high gain toaster conversion sounds like just the trick!

Cale, the pots cause loading on the pickups, which ends up rolling off some high end, sort of a low pass filter. The higher the resistance (not impedance) the more highs you get. This is also why turning down the volume causes some high end loss.

The higher the DC resistance of the pickup, the more high end roll off you will get from lower value pots.

ricosound · Post by **ricosound** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 am

I meant Jeff Scott.

endlessbassic · Post by **endlessbassic** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:17 am

Huh.. i thought it was the other way around re: resistance, but i guess that makes sense. But as i understand it, high end attenuation shouldn't always happen, though.. is it as a result of them being audio pots, as opposed to linear taper pots (or does that only affect the curve of attenuation?) Or something else entirely? I guess i'm just going to have to try it out, and perhaps put 500k pots in for the one or the other p/u circuit just to see..

Also, regarding toasters, is there more low end and/or high end output, or are the h.g.'s more wide range freq.-wise? Sorry to keep harping on this, but i just want to get a sense..

Thanks again!

david_schwab · Post by **david_schwab** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:02 pm

Cale if you take a resistor (not a pot), and connect that between the pickup and ground, you have loading. Note that even with a variable resistor (a pot) you have the two outside contacts, which are the value of the pot, i.e. 250k, and the center wiper, which naturally moves from full on to ground. But the overall resistance of the potentiometer is still 250K (or 500K, 1M, etc.).

Audio pots just have a different taper compared to linear, which works better for audio, but they both work fine. I use linear pots all the time if I can't find what I need in an audio taper.

So yes, it only affects the curve.

Also keep in mind that Rics have more than one pot in the circuit, which is parallel resistance. So four 250K pots is something like 62.5k of resistance across the pickups. Although it probably only sees the two volumes. I haven't actually taken the time to look at the schematic while writing this... But you get the idea.

The only way you ever hear the actual sound of the pickup would be with no pots at all, and into a very high impedance load. But as Jeff points out, that's not always what you want to hear.

As far as the toasters, the low gain units would have a wider frequency range, but less output. The more you wind on a coil, especially past 8k for a single coil, starts to roll off highs and enhance the lows and mids.

endlessbassic · Post by **endlessbassic** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:10 pm

Makes perfect sense now.. i get the picture. thanks, David!

Any further thoughts on the sound of toasters?

jps · Post by **jps** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:52 pm

Pickguardian made two for me, the one you see there is a white backed lucite pickguard, he also made me one from the standard RIC type plastic.

bobcat · Post by **bobcat** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:09 pm

I've been told that the toaster is a lot, um, bassier, whereas the hi-gain is a lot more growly. I guess the toaster sounds cleaner. I want to put a toaster in my bass to see what it sounds like, but if I don't like it, then I'll end up with a pickup I want and less $100 . . . sometimes I love the hi-gain and sometimes I wish it would just turn into a Gibson EB-O neck pickup that's just solid bass. I guess I just need to mess with the amp settings more.