Down The Tubes?

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:30 am

The Fender Cyber-Twin SE, the Vox Tonelab, and the Line6 are but three examples of products that attempt to emulate the analog sound of famous amplifiers.

While I have not shied away from an effects pedal here and there, I have thus far resisted the idea that there is a one size fits all digital substitute for any tube amplifier out there. For the most part, I have found older used tube amplifers and gradually had them repaired over time in stages as my budget will allow.

I am interested in your thoughts about these digital products. How close are they to the real deal and will they one day make analog equipment obsolete? Is the IPod the digital amplifier of 2099?

bitzerguy · Post by **bitzerguy** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:49 am

Hi Peter, let me take a stab at this. I have some experience with two of the three products you mention.

The Cyber Twin is an amp with tube pre-amp, then digital processing, followed by a solid state power amp section. It would fall into a similar product class as the Vox Valvetronix amps, which have a digital processor and pre-amp followed by their Valve Reactor circuit (12AX7 tubes configured as 1 watt power amp tubes, with feedback circuit and switchable Class A / Class AB circuit), then followed by a transparent PA style power section. The Tonelab is similar to the Valvetronix but without the power amp section and speaker. The Line 6 I do not know technically, but have played them briefly, and they are definitely not as "tubey" as the Vox, but are very similar in tone to the Fender.

The big difference between the Fender and Vox are the way the tubes are used. The tube tone we all love is generally produced in the power tube section, not the pre-amp section. So the Fender falls short here, where the VOX actually has power amp tubes (12AX7s are commonly referred to as preamp tubes due to the small power output, but they can be used effectively as power amp tubes as well, check out the Zvex).

My co-guitar player uses a CyberTwin SE and it is very definitely dry in Tone (Line 6ish in tone)compared to my Valvetronix amp and Tonelab. When comparing the CyberTwin and my Valvetronix to a Mesa Boogie Rectifier, the V'x came extremely close in tone, so much so that an average listener could not tell the difference, while the Fender could not get anywhere near the warmth, no matter how much tweaking we did. The AC30, AC15, Marshall, Soldano and Bassman (4x10) models on the V'x were also much warmer and convincing than the CyberTwin. The picking dynamics are very tubelike with the Vox, but dry and lifeless with the CyberTwin.

After our Haloween gig on Saturday, my co-guitarist has indicated he will sell his CyberTwin and buy a Tonelab. He owns a Mackie/Crown PA system that really does the Tonelab justice.

Regarding the line 6, I tried a Vetta and a POD after I tested the Vox, and spent less than 5 minutes with them. To my ears they were just not comfortable or warm and never "felt" right.

Will they make analog obsolete? (I assume you mean tube based here) I don't think so. The Vox gear is very, very close to tube gear, and IMO is the only way to go if you want to play several tube amps in one song or set. I have been using the AD120VTH/AD212 stack for 2 years now and a Tonelab for 1. Neither have let me down and both get interesting comments from listener and pro musician alike.

However, there is still something very magical in a true tube amp that has yet to be captured digitally, by anyone.

Just my $0.02.

...Dean

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:23 am

Dean: Thanks for the detailed analysis. In practical terms you raise an interesting point.

The Vox gear is very, very close to tube gear, and IMO is the only way to go if you want to play several tube amps in one song or set.

In the early days of tube amplifers, you were lucky to have one and you made do with the sound you had. It seems today that there is an expectation that you have to nail sounds from different eras within a couple of hours.

I agree with your appraisal of the Line 6. I tried the Rickenbacker 12 string setting and I was not convinced for a moment.

Your comments on the Vox are somewhat encouraging but it seems as if we are quite a way off in having a one amp does it all product.

soundmasterg · Post by **soundmasterg** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:47 pm

It will be very hard if not impossible to accurately emulate tube gear 100% because of how tubes work, and there are things in their operation that just can't be measured. If you inject a sine wave into an amp and try to see the effects on a scope or distortion analyzer, you're only looking at one wave at a time. When we put our guitar signal into the amp, its multiple waves all at the same time, and you just can't discern anything when you look at a scope signal with lots of waves at the same time like that. Its too complicated. Yet, the tubes react differently when a simple sine wave is being input in, compared to when a guitar signal is going in.

Having said all that, the Vox modelling amps are closer to a tube amp in overall sound than any others I've heard, but I still prefer tube amps myself in almost all situations. The other nice thing about tube circuitry is that it is built to last rather than being throwaway like so muhc modern stuff, which makes it more of a value in my eyes.

alanz · Post by **alanz** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:29 pm

My lead guitarist used a Line 6 Spider for a while but while we all liked the tone flexibility the cabinet itself was extremely harsh sounding; very "blatty" with its highs.

He has since moved on to a 50W Rivera amp that has that great tube sound and we all like it a lot - but it does have microphonics problems a times.

By the way, I have heard Line 6s that sound awesome, mostly because the stock speaker was being bypassed with some sort of 2x12 or 4x12 cabinet.

bitzerguy · Post by **bitzerguy** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:22 pm

Peter: Our set list is so varied, whether cover or original, we stray from 60's rock and blues through the metal zone and on into latin, dance and country. I would need a bank of expensive amps and a barrage of pedals to get the tones we love to include. The Vox does this very nicely, and at a volume that can be elegantly controlled. I can switch from Les Paul, 660/12, Godin and Takamine acoustic with one amp. It is a ton of fun...

I agree with the Line 6 through the 4x12. I heard the Vetta this way and it sounded awesome... until I a/bd it with an AC30. It had great metal tones though, and it could do multiple effects processing like no tomorrow. Produced some really interesting sounds. Again it did all that with only one foot controller.

The big advantage to the modelers is the flexibility. But tone is sacrificed to some extent in all, a little less in the Vox gear.

...Dean