Vox Amplifiers: China Versus England Built
Moderator: jingle_jangle
Kevin: I haven't bought a Chinese AC30 yet, but it's probably just a matter of time. I have more than a dozen Vox amps built from 1965 thru 2004, including a '65 AC30 Super Twin Reverb. My favorite rig for playing at home is a recent Pathfinder 15W solid-state head driving a recent V212 2x12" cabinet (with Wharfdale speakers). It sounds great to me and has a great vintage look with the brown grille cloth, etc. I don't play out, but this is perfect for my uses.
I agree Randy. I suspect that I may purchase a Chinese made Vox one day. The sound and new features on these amplifiers, not to mention the price makes them attractive. The second hand Chinese models may turn out to be quite desirable.
I do think that Wolfgang has a point here though. I am not qualified to comment too loudly on the sound of cheaper components compared to more expensive ones in amplifiers. I can say, however, that in working on numerous guitars over the years that cheaper pots, pickups and other components fail much more frequently.
I worry that cheap parts may lead to more meltdowns than some may wish to have. This is an empirical question that will only be answered following the test of time.
I do think that Wolfgang has a point here though. I am not qualified to comment too loudly on the sound of cheaper components compared to more expensive ones in amplifiers. I can say, however, that in working on numerous guitars over the years that cheaper pots, pickups and other components fail much more frequently.
I worry that cheap parts may lead to more meltdowns than some may wish to have. This is an empirical question that will only be answered following the test of time.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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soundmasterg
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I haven't seen the inside of the new Chinese made AC30's yet, but have heard they use Molex connectors, which are much like the grey data cables inside a computer. These aren't very good at all for guitar amps for a number of reasons, some of which being that they often fail or make poor contact, and also having wire runs so close and in parallel to each other can create oscillations and crosstalk. I'll have to see if I can get a look inside one to see for sure. In the meantime, I own a 90's Korg reissue AC30, and have seen the old 60's ones also. The Korgs use board mounted pots and preamp sockets and a PCB, but they are well engineered and well made, are pretty easy to work on, and sound very good. Mine has been very reliable, and I've had it since new in 1993. If the new Chinese ones can even approach the reliabilty and tone of the Korgs or the old ones, then they will be fine. I'm doubtful however, from what I've heard about them.
In regards to cheaper components and more expensive ones, price doesn't really matter per se. The problem with a lot of modern amps is that they are using 1/4 watt resistors and caps not rated for the high voltages that are seen in these circuits. The caps and resistors will hold up for awhile, but will eventually fail because they are overstressed. Most tube amps need 1/2 watt resistors in certain places like a plate resistor for example, and going to an even bigger resistor will reduce the noise level more than using a 1/2 watt resistor just because of the bigger size.
Most caps nowadays are vastly superior in longevity and quality of construction and tolerance to older stuff. Because they are made with different materials, they often sound different than the older ones. Price doesn't necessarily mean a cap sounds better unless you're talking hi-fi. In guitar amps, we don't really care about those way high frequencies like hi-fi amps are trying to reproduce, so we can settle for a lower quality cap, and sometimes the lower quality cap can sound better too. As long as the cap meets the voltage requirement of the circuit it is in, and is made well, then it will probably outlast you if you're using a modern film cap. Electrolytic caps wear out and need to be replaced eventually, and these are usually used in the power supply.
In guitars, due to the very low voltages in the circuitry inside a guitar, cap differences are almost a non factor. The only tonal change you're likely to hear inside a guitar when changing caps would be due to using different value of caps, rather than different composition or brand.
In regards to cheaper components and more expensive ones, price doesn't really matter per se. The problem with a lot of modern amps is that they are using 1/4 watt resistors and caps not rated for the high voltages that are seen in these circuits. The caps and resistors will hold up for awhile, but will eventually fail because they are overstressed. Most tube amps need 1/2 watt resistors in certain places like a plate resistor for example, and going to an even bigger resistor will reduce the noise level more than using a 1/2 watt resistor just because of the bigger size.
Most caps nowadays are vastly superior in longevity and quality of construction and tolerance to older stuff. Because they are made with different materials, they often sound different than the older ones. Price doesn't necessarily mean a cap sounds better unless you're talking hi-fi. In guitar amps, we don't really care about those way high frequencies like hi-fi amps are trying to reproduce, so we can settle for a lower quality cap, and sometimes the lower quality cap can sound better too. As long as the cap meets the voltage requirement of the circuit it is in, and is made well, then it will probably outlast you if you're using a modern film cap. Electrolytic caps wear out and need to be replaced eventually, and these are usually used in the power supply.
In guitars, due to the very low voltages in the circuitry inside a guitar, cap differences are almost a non factor. The only tonal change you're likely to hear inside a guitar when changing caps would be due to using different value of caps, rather than different composition or brand.
Well, Greg, FWIW, the same guy (Steve Grindrod) designed both the UK-made Korg/Vox AC30 and the new Chinese-made AC30CC amps. I love my AC30-TBXP, but I think it's fair to say that those amps had their share of issues. I know that Steve has addressed many of those issues with the design of the new CC amps. I have some interesting quotes from him somewhere about the CC amps. I'll post 'em when I dig 'em up.
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soundmasterg
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That would be great Kevin. Like I said, I haven't seen the insides of the new amps. I've just heard stories about them and their construction, and problems that people have had with them, and that they are harder to work on due to the way the chassis fits into the combo. If the stories are true, then there were some changes that were made that don't sound very good...but you never know with stories. I'd like to see one myself. I know the Korgs were well made and sound good, so until I can see one of the new ones up close, I'll stick with the Korgs myself, or an old one if I could afford it.
The chassis design is very much like the vintage JMI design. It's an L-shaped chassis that sits on a wooden slide-in shelf. The problems people were having working on the amp (and replacing tubes, etc) were due to the fact that, just like JMI AC30s, the speakers are hard-wired to the chassis. Normally, this wouldn't be a problem: Steve Grindrod posted on the Plexi Palace forum that he designed and spec'd the amp to have long speaker wires which would be bundled and tied inside the amp. You could undo the tie and slide the shelf all the way out.
However, the folks on the assembly line thought that this was very untidy looking, and so the first batch of amps left the factory with nice, neat, and yes, short wires from the speakers to the chassis. It looked good, but made it impossible to slide the chassis far enough out to get at all the tubes... unless you unsoldered the speaker wires from the speakers!
Naturally, once this was noticed, things were done correctly and the amps are now leaving the factory as designed.
I'm still digging for all the other quotes.
However, the folks on the assembly line thought that this was very untidy looking, and so the first batch of amps left the factory with nice, neat, and yes, short wires from the speakers to the chassis. It looked good, but made it impossible to slide the chassis far enough out to get at all the tubes... unless you unsoldered the speaker wires from the speakers!
Naturally, once this was noticed, things were done correctly and the amps are now leaving the factory as designed.
I'm still digging for all the other quotes.
Okay, here is some of what Steve said, culled from a couple of posts on VoxTalks:
-------------------
Just to give you guys a bit more in-sight on the detail of the new design: -
Carbon Film resistors in the right places of the signal chain.
Axial Polyester capacitors.
Both transformers & the choke are built to the old Albion specs (we are actually making the transformers ourselves).
The chassis is an "L" shape steel/aluminium two piece based on the original shape, and mounted on a shelf like the originals. Apart from being more historically correct this gives the tubes an easier life by mounting the EL84s upright, and also helps reduce microphonics. The steel/aluminium also helps bring the hum down to absolute minimum levels, along with getting the grounding as best as I could probably get, the hum levels are virtually non-exsistant.
I may be biased here, but I personally think that I have created probably the most sweetest AC30 variants ever - I am particularly proud of this amp out of all the products I've ever done, it is addictive to play.
That's my opinion as a guitar player and not just "marketing' BS.
+++more+++
If anyone's remotely interested, I have had an on/off relationship with VOX since 1961 when I got my first guitar, a VOX Stroller if my memory serves me well, from the Bexleyheath shop. It was due to that purchase that I built my first amp, as I couldn't afford to buy one.
Through the '60s I used a variety of VOX amps (AC15, AC30, T60 and 100watt PA and cabinets) plus a Continental (and, wash my mouth out, a Farfisa) when lugging the Hammond around wasn't practical! Those, and sometimes the Hammond(!), usually went through whatever VOX amp I had available.
I learnt the insides of the all from doing servicing, repairs and mods.
I feel very proud to have come full circle - I have great plans for VOX over the next few years.
--------------------
What Steve doesn't mention there is that in between he worked at Marshall, and was the head designer of all the tube heads from the mid 1970s until the mid-1990s. He is responsible for quite a few classic designs.
Personally, I noticed a couple of things about the CC design. First of all, the power tubes are mounted to the chassis. True, the three 12AX7s are PCB-mounted, but they do not generate nearly as much heat as an EL84 going full-bore. Next, the input and the pots are mounted to a separate, small PCB of their own. This is a very smart move in the use of PCB construction when it comes to flexing and other things affecting reliability.
I believe that the resistors, capacitors, and transformers mentioned by Steve are actually HIGHER quality than those used in the 90's UK-made amps.
-------------------
Just to give you guys a bit more in-sight on the detail of the new design: -
Carbon Film resistors in the right places of the signal chain.
Axial Polyester capacitors.
Both transformers & the choke are built to the old Albion specs (we are actually making the transformers ourselves).
The chassis is an "L" shape steel/aluminium two piece based on the original shape, and mounted on a shelf like the originals. Apart from being more historically correct this gives the tubes an easier life by mounting the EL84s upright, and also helps reduce microphonics. The steel/aluminium also helps bring the hum down to absolute minimum levels, along with getting the grounding as best as I could probably get, the hum levels are virtually non-exsistant.
I may be biased here, but I personally think that I have created probably the most sweetest AC30 variants ever - I am particularly proud of this amp out of all the products I've ever done, it is addictive to play.
That's my opinion as a guitar player and not just "marketing' BS.
+++more+++
If anyone's remotely interested, I have had an on/off relationship with VOX since 1961 when I got my first guitar, a VOX Stroller if my memory serves me well, from the Bexleyheath shop. It was due to that purchase that I built my first amp, as I couldn't afford to buy one.
Through the '60s I used a variety of VOX amps (AC15, AC30, T60 and 100watt PA and cabinets) plus a Continental (and, wash my mouth out, a Farfisa) when lugging the Hammond around wasn't practical! Those, and sometimes the Hammond(!), usually went through whatever VOX amp I had available.
I learnt the insides of the all from doing servicing, repairs and mods.
I feel very proud to have come full circle - I have great plans for VOX over the next few years.
--------------------
What Steve doesn't mention there is that in between he worked at Marshall, and was the head designer of all the tube heads from the mid 1970s until the mid-1990s. He is responsible for quite a few classic designs.
Personally, I noticed a couple of things about the CC design. First of all, the power tubes are mounted to the chassis. True, the three 12AX7s are PCB-mounted, but they do not generate nearly as much heat as an EL84 going full-bore. Next, the input and the pots are mounted to a separate, small PCB of their own. This is a very smart move in the use of PCB construction when it comes to flexing and other things affecting reliability.
I believe that the resistors, capacitors, and transformers mentioned by Steve are actually HIGHER quality than those used in the 90's UK-made amps.
Peter,
I guess what I'm getting at is the initial exchange on this thread. You posted, "Charlie: Perhaps it is too early to make an informed opinion on Vox amplifiers made in China. Nonetheless, I am curious what you may have seen on the bench or heard about the tonality and quality control of the recently made China AC-30 type compared to those made in England?"
And Charlie replied, "In general, not as good, due to cheaper components. It seems that almost everyone is going to China now. They use very cheap resistors, capacitors and transformers. The result is cheesy sound. Unless VOX is providing them with high quality parts, I tend to think these will never be as good us UK made VOXs."
That's a pretty broad statement considering the fact that Charlie hasn't actually seen the innards of recent UK-made AC30s. I wanted to know what Charlie was basing his opinion on. Everything I know says that the Chinese-made AC30CCs actually use better signal components and better-planned PCBs than the UK-made AC30-TBX series made from 1993 to 2004.
So it concerns me a bit when I see such statements being made. Knowing what I do about these amps, I could actually tell from his initial response that he hadn't actually compared the two, which was, I believe, your original question. That's why I was trying to get a more exact answer. Yes, I know he said "in general", but it really wasn't conveyed that he had no idea how these amps actually compared.
I guess what I'm getting at is the initial exchange on this thread. You posted, "Charlie: Perhaps it is too early to make an informed opinion on Vox amplifiers made in China. Nonetheless, I am curious what you may have seen on the bench or heard about the tonality and quality control of the recently made China AC-30 type compared to those made in England?"
And Charlie replied, "In general, not as good, due to cheaper components. It seems that almost everyone is going to China now. They use very cheap resistors, capacitors and transformers. The result is cheesy sound. Unless VOX is providing them with high quality parts, I tend to think these will never be as good us UK made VOXs."
That's a pretty broad statement considering the fact that Charlie hasn't actually seen the innards of recent UK-made AC30s. I wanted to know what Charlie was basing his opinion on. Everything I know says that the Chinese-made AC30CCs actually use better signal components and better-planned PCBs than the UK-made AC30-TBX series made from 1993 to 2004.
So it concerns me a bit when I see such statements being made. Knowing what I do about these amps, I could actually tell from his initial response that he hadn't actually compared the two, which was, I believe, your original question. That's why I was trying to get a more exact answer. Yes, I know he said "in general", but it really wasn't conveyed that he had no idea how these amps actually compared.
Those that would like to see some pictures of the inside of an AC30CC can see them at NorthCoast Music's website http://www.voxshowroom.com/northcoast/shopping/index.htm. Gary has some great photos there, and, while not conclusive, I don't see any Molex connectors or ribbon cable. In fact the interPCB wiring and component witing sure look a lot like an HW.
I agree with Kevin's points 100% here. Unless you know for certain (through inspection and justification) that the components are actually cheaper quality, general statements about any amp's quality should be restrained. IMO a better response in this case would have been "I haven't actually seen or tried an AC30CC so I can't really comment".
...Dean
I agree with Kevin's points 100% here. Unless you know for certain (through inspection and justification) that the components are actually cheaper quality, general statements about any amp's quality should be restrained. IMO a better response in this case would have been "I haven't actually seen or tried an AC30CC so I can't really comment".
...Dean
...Dean
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I just got an email from Mitch Colby, Sr VP of Korg, who makes Vox amps. According to his email, the quality of the new VOX AC30s is exceptional. The transformers are clones of the original Albions in the vintage AC30s. In addition, high-quality axial coupling and signal caps are used in critical applications. Carbon film resistors are used, but are higher wattage rating and general have a good sound compared to metal oxide film types. The circuit boards are thicker than average and use thicker traces. The cabinets are made from birch plywood for good tonal coupling to the cabinet. The speakers are either made by Wharfdale (Vox designed) or Celestion made Vox Blues.
Overall, this is a much higher grade of replica amp than what we have seen from other manufacturers. I think Vox went the extra mile to make this a more authentic reissue. From most reports, they sound quite good too.
My statement about new amp quality was meant to be general in nature and I think some manufacturers, like Vox (Korg) are really doing their homework and producing high quality products at reasonable prices.
Overall, this is a much higher grade of replica amp than what we have seen from other manufacturers. I think Vox went the extra mile to make this a more authentic reissue. From most reports, they sound quite good too.
My statement about new amp quality was meant to be general in nature and I think some manufacturers, like Vox (Korg) are really doing their homework and producing high quality products at reasonable prices.
Thanks Kevin, I catch your drift and, in the context of this thread, I better appreciate your viewpoint after your last post.
Thanks for getting more information with regard to the design and quality of these amplifiers. It will be good to watch the comments on tonality and durability of the AC30CC over the next while. It would certainly seem that Vox has done its homework.
Thanks for getting more information with regard to the design and quality of these amplifiers. It will be good to watch the comments on tonality and durability of the AC30CC over the next while. It would certainly seem that Vox has done its homework.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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soundmasterg
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Kevin, thanks for the links and info. From what those pics show, it seems like the new amps are pretty well made, and it looks like the fixed the chassis issue with the wires. I still want to see one in person, but I'm a little more receptive to them now than I was before. I'll have to try one out and see if I can get a closer look at the construction.
Greg,
FWIW, reliability of the new amps has been brought up on a couple of other boards I frequent. There have been some issues with preamp tubes, but Vox covers preamp tubes under warrantee for the first 90 days and direct email addresses are available to the folks at KorgUSA if there are any issues.
And overall, techs have posted that they haven't seen a large amount of new AC30s coming across their benches -- the new amps seem at least as reliable as any other currently manufactured amp.
Of course, for the price, you're not going to get a Matchless, BadCat, or AC30HW in terms of hand-wired, built-like-a-tank construction. But you do get a great sounding amp at a really good price.
FWIW, reliability of the new amps has been brought up on a couple of other boards I frequent. There have been some issues with preamp tubes, but Vox covers preamp tubes under warrantee for the first 90 days and direct email addresses are available to the folks at KorgUSA if there are any issues.
And overall, techs have posted that they haven't seen a large amount of new AC30s coming across their benches -- the new amps seem at least as reliable as any other currently manufactured amp.
Of course, for the price, you're not going to get a Matchless, BadCat, or AC30HW in terms of hand-wired, built-like-a-tank construction. But you do get a great sounding amp at a really good price.
What great input from a number of people here. I am sure that there are A LOT of members reading this thread with considerable interest. Once again, this forum seems to be one of the best places to go for accurate, "inside" information that helps us all. Not to mention the respectful tones and desire to help.
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chefothefuture
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Well-
I think that Vox may have had good intentions with the AC30CC and it does have some great features. But I would
have prefered less bells and whistles and some higher
quality components....
It's also a very easy mod to have a speaker jack by removing the PC board alltogther. An added plus by
this mod is you don't run your speaker output through
a switch(the external spkr out...)
I actually like the Korg era ones better....
I think that Vox may have had good intentions with the AC30CC and it does have some great features. But I would
have prefered less bells and whistles and some higher
quality components....
It's also a very easy mod to have a speaker jack by removing the PC board alltogther. An added plus by
this mod is you don't run your speaker output through
a switch(the external spkr out...)
I actually like the Korg era ones better....
'68 4001MG, '70 4001 21Fret, '71 4001S MG, '71 4001FG, '72 4001AZ, '73 4001FG, '73 4001resto, '59 365FG, '96 381/12v69FG, '71 4001 21Fret FG